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The Sealed Portion
A generally well known yet little explored detail about the Book of Mormon is that it contained a sealed portion. It is conventionally understood that the Book of Mormon came packaged with some material that the Saints were obviously not prepared to receive, and as such, we can only patiently wait for it to one day be revealed, but until then, we should leave the matter alone, and not speculate idly.
Idle speculation can indeed be counterproductive, but it might come as a surprise that the Book of Mormon actually contains a considerable amount of information regarding the contents, origin, and purpose of the sealed portion. The pedigree of what became the sealed portion can roughly be characterized as follows:
- Obtained by Brother of Jared
- Compiled and hid by Ether
- Discovered by the Limhi’s search team
- Translated by Mosiah
- Kept by Alma
- Passed down to Mormon
- Translated and compiled by Moroni
- Received by Joseph Smith
- Anticipating the unsealing
Obtained by the Brother of Jared
If we consult the story of the Brother of Jared, we learn that he requested that the Lord touch the 16 stones he had made in order to illuminate them. Having shown his spiritual finger, the Lord proceeds to show himself entirely. Having done this, we learn that:
“When the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth…and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.” (Ether 3: 25, 4:4)
After showing this marvelous vision, the Lord said:
“Write these things and seal them up; and I will show them in mine own due time unto the children of men.” (Ether 3:27)
We assume that the vision was recorded, “sealed up” and kept with the Jaredite records.
Compiled and hid by Ether
Ether was the last Jaredite prophet, and it was he who took the challenge of writing the history of his people:
“And as he dwelt in the cavity of a rock he made the remainder of his record” (Ether 13:14)
Ether then took the Jaredite record, which doubtless contained the vision of the brother of Jared, and secured them in some repository:
“And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.” (Ether 15:33)
Discovered by the Limhi’s search team
Limhi, the son of King Noah, was of the third generation of the group that left Zarahemla and recolonized the land of Nephi. The Lamanites had invaded, however, and the people of Limhi were subjected to a heavy tax. Remembering their origins, Limhi sent a sent a search team out to find Zarahemla. The team sets out, but lacking direction, they completely overshoot Zarahemla and instead reach the land northward, where they discover Jaredite ruins:
“Nevertheless, they did find a land which had been peopled; yea, a land which was covered with dry bones; yea, a land which had been peopled and which had been destroyed; and they, having supposed it to be the land of Zarahemla, returned to the land of Nephi.” (Mosiah 21:26)
In these ruins, they found the Jaredite record that had been left by Ether, and brought it back to the land of Nephi with them:
“And they brought a record with them, even a record of the people whose bones they had found; and it was engraven on plates of ore. And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought twenty–four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.” (Mosiah 21:27, 8:9)
Unfortunately, Limhi’s people were unable to translate the records because “there [was] no one in the land that [was] able to interpret the language or the engravings that are on the plates” (Mosiah 8:11), so they remained an elusive mystery. A few days later, Ammon and his team, dispatched from Zarahemla, encounter Limhi’s people. Ammon tells Limhi about the prophet Mosiah in Zarahemla, and Limhi expresses his desire to have the records translated:
“For I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language; for, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of a remnant of the people who have been destroyed, from whence these records came; or, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of this very people who have been destroyed; and I am desirous to know the cause of their destruction.” (Mosiah 12:18)
Translated by Mosiah
Limhi’s group is eventually led by Ammon back to Zarahemla. There, Mosiah got the records, and “translated and caused to be written the records which were on the plates of gold which had been found by the people of Limhi.” (Mosiah 28:11) Based on the account in the book of Mosiah, we can rest assured that these plates is in fact the record of the Jaredites, which included the sealed vision of the Brother of Jared:
“Now after Mosiah had finished translating these records, behold, it gave an account of the people who were destroyed, from the time that they were destroyed back to the building of the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people and they were scattered abroad upon the face of all the earth, yea, and even from that time back until the creation of Adam.” (Mosiah 28:17)
However, it seems clear that Mosiah suppressed the publication of his translation, and presumably only gave an oral summary to the people:
“…They were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.” (Ether 4:1)
Even so, the people seemed satisfied with whatever information they received:
“Now this account did cause the people of Mosiah to mourn exceedingly, yea, they were filled with sorrow; nevertheless it gave them much knowledge, in the which they did rejoice.” (Mosiah 28:18)
Following this, it appears that Mosiah put the 24 Jaredite plates and his translation in the Nephite record repository.
Kept by Alma
Alma eventually become the Nephite record keeper, and we have sufficient evidence to believe that he was keenly aware of the Jaredite record and what it contained, although it is unclear whether he had read the contents of the brother of Jared’s vision. In speaking to his son Helaman, Alma said:
“And now, I will speak unto you concerning those twenty–four plates, that ye keep them, that the mysteries and the works of darkness, and their secret works, or the secret works of those people who have been destroyed, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, all their murders, and robbings, and their plunderings, and all their wickedness and abominations, may be made manifest unto this people.” (Alma 37:21)
Passed down to Mormon
Many generations later, Mormon was charged with the responsibilities of record keeping. He received the Nephite records from Ammaron, who had deposited them in the hill shim. He instructed Mormon:
“Therefore, when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people.” (Mormon 1:3)
Mormon does as commanded, and, based off of the Nephite records, he writes the account of the Nephites on his own plates. Having done this, he passes the record keeping responsibilities to his son Moroni.
Translated, compiled and sealed by Moroni
While the complete hand-off sequence is unclear, we know that Moroni ended up with at least the plates of Mormon (Mormon 6:6), and the 24 Jaredite plates. (Ether 1:2)
Moroni begins translating the 24 plates, and writes his summary of it in what eventually became the book of Ether. When Moroni reaches the point where the brother of Jared’s vision is recorded, he makes a full and complete account of it, although it would seem in a separate section of the plates:
“Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared. Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them.” (Ether 4:4)
Having written the vision, he warns the translator of his record not to include this sealed vision:
“I have told you the things which I have sealed up; therefore touch them not in order that ye may translate; for that thing is forbidden you, except by and by it shall be wisdom in God.” (Ether 5:1)
Moroni then completes the record, and hides it up.
Received by Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith unearthed the record in the late 1820’s. Joseph noted that a portion of the plates were sealed:
“These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed.” (Letter to John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat)
Martin Harris was aware of this when he went to Colombia University to settle his mind regarding the authenticity of the project his would undertake. He sought out Professor Charles Anthon, who after examining a transcript of characters copies from the gold plates, issued Martin a certificate of authenticity. Martin explained:
“I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him. He then said to me, ‘Let me see that certificate.’ I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, ‘I cannot read a sealed book.’ I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.” (Joseph Smith History 1:64-65)
This seems to be the fulfillment of an obscure Isaiah prophesy:
“And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.” (Isaiah 29:11-12)
This prophesy was further expounded by Nephi, who added the Lord’s words regarding the sealed portion:
“But the words which are sealed he shall not deliver, neither shall he deliver the book. For the book shall be sealed by the power of God, and the revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book until the own due time of the Lord, that they may come forth; for behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof… Touch not the things which are sealed, for I will bring them forth in mine own due time; for I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work.” (2 Nephi 27:10-21)
Anticipating the unsealing
It would be a terrible waste if the Brother of Jared, Ether, Mosiah, and Moroni all went through the trouble of recording, compiling, or translating the sealed portion if it was simply destined to be forever locked up. We do learn that the sealed portion, will indeed come forth, but the conditions must be right. The Lord told Moroni:
“They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord. And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.” (Ether 4: 6-7)
Joseph Smith was given the keys of unlocking the sealed portion—keys which are still active today:
“And I have given unto him the keys of the mystery of those things which have been sealed, even things which were from the foundation of the world, and the things which shall come from this time until the time of my coming, if he abide in me, and if not, another will I plant in his stead.” (D&C 35: 18)
Bruce R. McConkie weighed in on the subject as such:
“Sadly, the book is sealed; as contents are being kept from men in this day. Indeed, it is not even now in the possession of mortals; it was returned by Joseph Smith to Moroni, its divinely appointed custodian. Nor did even Joseph Smith either read or translate it. We know of no one among mortals since Mormon and Moroni who have known its contents. It was known among the Nephites during he nearly two hundred years of their Golden Era. But for the present, the book is kept bent us; only the portion upon which no seal was placed has been translated. Why are these plates of Mormon sealed? The answer is obvious. They contain spiritual truths beyond our present ability to receive. Milk must precede meat, and whenever men are offered more of the mysteries of the kingdom than they are prepared to receive, it affects them adversely.” (New Witness, p. 443.)
Regarding its contents, Elder McConkie also said:
“Of this much we are quite certain: when, during the Millennium, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is translated, it will give an account of life in preexistence; of the creation of all things; of the fall and the atonement and the Second Coming; of temple ordinances, in their fulness; of the ministry and mission of translated beings; of life in the spirit world, in both paradise and hot of the kingdoms of glory to be inhabited by resurrected being and many such like things.(”The Bible—A Sealed Book,” CES Address, August 1984.)
Whatever its exact contents, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is doubtless full of fascinating and insightful information. Who knows when the day will come that its contents will be revealed, but in the meantime we would do well to remember that we are still under condemnation for not taking seriously the part of the Book of Mormon that we do have. So how can we take this book of scripture more seriously? Well, for starters, you cans start exploring http://bookofmormononline.net/ and see where that leads you.
225 Responses
So the sealed portion contains all the events of the world from beginning to end as seen by Enoch. Have you ever considered that the revelation of what is contained therein could be available to anyone? Could this be the way that the sealed portion is to be revealed in the latter days?
After Nephi heard of the vision that was given to his father Lehi, he was desirous to receive the same manifestation. We read in 1 Nephi 10:17-19:
Alma adds to the idea that we have the ability to gain this treasure as found in Alma 12:9-10:
If we diligently seek this knowledge from God we can receive it in FULL. In D&C 76, Joseph Smith discussed this idea also:
In D&C 39:6 we read:
The sealed portion of the Book of Mormon could be available to each one of us if we are but willing to repent and come unto Christ and be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. It is through this spectacular baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost that we can be shown ALL things.
Spektator, thanks for your additional insights. The scriptures do seem to indicate that the contents of the sealed portion are available. Again, looking in Ether 4, we see:
So at what point in one’s spiritual progression is it appropriate to expect these things? And if these things are not manifest, must we conclude that we have not yet sufficiently “exercise[d] faith” or “become sanctified in [Christ]”?
Do you think anyone alive has received this revelation?
Mahonri,
I am glad you brought up the Ether comment. I had forgotten about it.
You bring up some good questions. Based on the scriptures I quoted, the Lord will give us the information when we, individually or collectively, are ready. In Alma’s time, there were many who were receiving the mysteries. I have a good friend who, I believe, was on this path. This friend made the mistake of showing their journal to their stake president and were summarily ex’ed.
I think the biggest problem today is that we, as the Lord’s ‘people,’ are not seeking for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost; the sanctifying power that is supposed to unlock this knowledge. The promise is there if we will act on it. But, you need to know how what to ask for. Pretty simple, huh?
I wish I could do nothing else but seek after the Lord, as did Nephi. The world keeps getting in the way…
Spek
Wow, ex’ed for showing a journal? This wasn’t Chris Namelka or any of the others who claimed to have received and published the sealed portion was it?
(see http://thesealedportion.com/ or http://www.sealedportion.com/ )
So when can we expect this baptism by fire? Is this not the “still small voice” that we must train ourselves to recognize?
No. This was just a person whose journal contained their personal experiences relative to revelation and made no claim of authority.
What to expect from the baptism of fire? The Book of Mormon is a good place to answer that. Reread the first 5 chapters of Mosiah very carefully. Then read 2 Nephi 31. Throw in a little Enos and Alma 36. Then read 3 Nephi 12. The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is what gives us a remission of our sins and makes us a new creature. It is what sanctifies us that we may dwell in the kingdom of God. It is the core of the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 39:6, D&C 33:11-12).
It is truly a life-changing experience and is the gate to the strait and narrow path to eternal life.
Spek
Thank you for your inquiring minds - I stumbled upon this site when studying the Olive tree allegory: I too am a seeker of truth and that baptism of fire - which seems to elude me even after 42 years of life as an active lds convert - now, in my ‘golden’ years I am more time-able (and willing) to seek more diligently to receive the spiritual rewards which I believe are ‘out there’ - or maybe ‘in there’……………
I find the extremes of Mormonism fascinating - bigotry and corruption one end and breathtaking magnificence the other!! Keep at it!!
Marion, Southampton, England
Meet the translator of The Sealed Portion
SAT. Dec 6th, SLC Library 400 S. & State
4th floor
9am-5pm
PS. That is an all day symposium, Christopher will speak. There will be time for questions.
Feel free to invite whomever.
I too have read the Sealed Portion, translated by Christopher. I testify to those who would hear that it is indeed the real thing. No other book, besides the Book of Mormon has ever awoken my Spirit so greatly, or caused me to truly want to live the Gospel as Christ intended. Be warned though, many will treat the Sealed Portion as the “Brass Serpent” and will refuse to “cast their eyes about it.”
I ran across the “sealed portion” web site some time ago, and read it. It really bothered me. I find it hard to believe that the true “sealed portion” will be revealed to the Latter-day Saints by someone who, by his own admission, apostatized from the Church. I was also upset that much of it was a condemnation of the Church leadership. I have no testimony of it.
When the time comes for it to be unsealed, I believe it will be through God’s own mouthpiece, whoever is his ordained Prophet at the time, part of the First Presidency of the Church.
If you personally have not received The Sealed Portion of the Book of Mormon then read Ether 4:15 and you’ll have your answer as to why you have not.
Also read Mormon 9:9 (?) that “in God is no variableness or shadow of changing”….ergo
Do you think He is going to change His mind the next go round about whom—young, uneducated and without title, or authority—he will “call and choose” to do His work?
Joseph Smith was not a “mouthpiece” of God. So why would you think he is going to choose one of those this time?
If you were truth seekers, even out of curiosity, you would have shown up at the meeting to hear from and meet the man who claims to have translated the plates to see for yourself.
The fact that you did not should be a clue to you, that had you lived during the time of Joseph Smith—you would not have read the Book of Mormon—or during Christ’s life—you would not have believed His teachings either, which—big aha—He also taught against the prevailing religion of the time.
Another BIG AHA..
Christ’s good friend John the Baptist of whom Christ said, “what think ye of John the Baptist?…yeah a prophet and more” was also an “apostate”.
It would help if we employed more common sense and less scare tactics to control our minds and what we read or listen to.
If you want to experience the true fruits of the gospel of J. Christ and experience the mighty change that Bill alluded to, I would encourage you to go back to thesealedportion.com website and this time read the last 2/3 the same way Moroni told you to read the first 1/3, “with a sincere heart, with real intent having faith in Christ…”
I think that as Mormons,looking beyond the mark is commonplace. Int the following scripture how could the Lamanites be baptized by the Holy Ghost and them not knowing it?
3 Nephi 9
[15] Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.
[16] I came unto my own, and my own received me not. And the scriptures concerning my coming are fulfilled.
[17] And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled.
[18] I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
[19] And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
[20] And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
Is it possible that aptism is symbolic of a person washing one’s self of all that one believes in and coming forth as a clean slate, upon which can be written the real truths which make us ONE with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
If this is true them the Baptism in the font perfomed by proper authority is a waste of time.
This one is for KC “Whatever its exact contents, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is doubtless full of fascinating and insightful information.”
You said a mouth full in this one sentence, you have no idea!!
If you’re interested however, just go to thesealedportion.com and start to read it for yourself online free or print a copy off the website.
Find out for yourself if its’ contents are infact fascinating and insightful to you or whether you prefer to ignore it and stick with your belief system as it currently is. The beauty of life is we all always have a choice, we are all ultimately self-lead- as it should be.
And for Spektator, yes the Sealed Portion is available for Everyone it’s simply a matter of going to thesealedportion.com and reading for one self. Whatever happens after reading the entire book is completely up to the reader.
Happy reading in the new year friends!
No more anticipation on my part!,
the Sealed Portion is available for anyone to read for FREE at thesealedporiton.com It can be read online or downloaded to have as a personal copy! The wait is over!
Once and for all, everyone can read for themselves what Moroni and other authors of the BOM wanted to write but were forbidden to. All the mystery and speculation surrounding the contents is over.
Glad Tidings for the New Year!
When the sealed portion is released to the world it will be done through the Prophet. God ALWAYS works through a prophet. He gave commandments and instructions and scripture to Adam, Noah, Moses Isaiah, etc., etc and then Joseph Smith; his authority being passed on down the line to President Monson. The “Final Testament” will not be given to an apostate, it will not be given to a woman, it will not be given to anyone but the Prophet. If a person receives the personal witness that Ether describes they will not tell anyone because they will be commanded not to, the same as the brother of Jared. I certainly hope that the people here who have posted the sealedtickettoapostasy.com aren’t being serious. If not the scriptures warn that in the last days even the elect will be deceived. I guess someone has to fulfil prophecy.
[…] Sealed Portion Here’s a pretty solid description about the history, pedigree, and contents of the sealed portion: BookofMormonOnline.Net Blog The Sealed Portion […]
Jo Nathan is absolutely entitled to his opinion of how and through whom the Final Testament will come to the world. Perhaps in his view of such things only the CSO Corporate Spiriutal Officer Monson has the heavenly connections to be able to write the rest of the 2/3 of the BOM- time will tell.
In that mean time for those who would like to partake of the fruit and judge for themselves, even as Lehi and his family did- for no one can taste the fruit for another - thesealedportion.com - it’s there to stay.
Yes Rose, and you’re entitled to be deceived. That you mock my name and President Monson and the church is evidence of the kind of person you are. “FOOLs mock but they shall mourn.”
Here are several glaring problems with the “sealed crock” (and no, that isn’t mocking because the “sealed crock” is a mockery to begin with):
1. To call the “sealed portion” the “final testament” is the first clue it is a fraud:
2 Nephi 29:9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
In other words, when the real sealed portion is revealed it will not be the “final testament.”
2. It is too short. It should be in excess of 1200 pages.
3. The conditions set fourth for the sealed portion to be given to the Saints haven’t been met.
4. If, and I mean if, it were true it reveals nothing new.
5. It doesn’t follow God’s pattern of revelation.
6. The person who wrote it (and inspired by Satan he wrote it) continually contradicts the very book from which the whole concept of his “sealed portion” comes.
If you have a testimony of Smith then you have to have a testimony of everything he did as a prophet. One of the things he did as a prophet was reorganize Jesus’ church complete with apostles, prophets, evangelists and so fourth. Since Christopher says that there is no reason to have leadership then he is saying Smith was in error and essentially, not a prophet. Worse yet, he’s also saying that Jesus was in error to call apostles and prophets. If Monson isn’t a prophet then Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet and the Book of Mormon would therefore be a fraud. If the Book of Mormon is a fraud then any kind of sealed portion, now or future is a fraud. A bad tree cannot bring fourth bitter fruit.
Christopher says that Jesus didn’t write scripture and that anyone who did had an ulterior motive. He ignores that IN the BOOK OF MORMON Jesus commanded his servants to write everything down for the benefit of mankind. Once again, Christopher doesn’t believe the Book of Mormon is an inspired book but claims he has revealed to mankind a book that comes from that book.
Christopher’s Book of Lehi is also TOO short. Christopher comes up short as a prophet, or whatever you think he is, as does your knowledge of the scriptures (but like Christopher you don’t believe in scripture unless it comes from Christopher).
If you believe that Christopher has brought to light new scripture then you DO NOT have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. If you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon then you do not understand it as it clearly contradicts Christopher. You obviously don’t have a testimony of the Book of Mormon or how God brings scripture to light.
You are deceived and you will be responsible for every soul that you drag down with this sealed crock fraud. That is not an opinion that is the truth.
Don’t know if you served a mission Jonathan, but didn’t you (and all missionaries) ask people just to “read the book”?
Why is that such a tall order for you?
If you get to the end of it and decide it ain’t for you…well at least you can speak from a credible voice of having read it.
Do you think you would have read the B of M had that “wacko” J.Smith asked you?
Or believed that “apostate” John the Baptist or that rebel Jesus Christ who was busy pulling people out of the church of the Jews who also considered themselves the “only true church”?
You might ask yourself J, what IF it is true.
If it’s not…don’t you trust yourself to know truth from error? It’s a book for gosh sakes, it’s not pornography, which according to Bishop Richard Edgley is the “biggest problem in the church”!! Now how could that be if this is the “only true church” with the only “true prophets”?
What is that parable about fruit trees…if it produces bad fruit…aren’t we supposed to dig them up and throw them out? Or graft good fruit in?
AWWWWEEEEE…maybe this Sealed Portion is the good fruit that needs to be grafted in because “all have gone astray except a few humble followers of Christ, but they do err…etc.” (b of m)
Only those with a broken heart and a contrite spirit who admit they don’t have ALL the answers to life’s mysteries are able to read something the same way Moroni told them to read the first 1/3 of the Book of Mormon…”with a sincere, heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ”.
You might be pleasantly surprised…but as Christ said, “except ye become as a little child….I say unto you except ye become as a little child” or “willing to be seen as a fool before God…ye shall in no wise enter in to the kingdom of God”.
We can only lead you to the fountain dear ones, where the MOST delectable fruit is to be found…whether you drink (read) or not is entirely up to you.
Add my witness,
Have I read the sealed forgery? Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon.
If you believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God then you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. If he was a prophet then you believe the Articles of Faith which declare that men must be called of God by prophecy and the laying on of hands by those who are in authority; that BAPTISM IS NECESSARY, so necessary that Jesus was baptized; that there are apostles, prophets etc. Everyone in this thread that has been deceived by the Sealed Crock denies these things. You talk about John the Baptist being a heretic in his day but believe in a book written by a person who claims all scripture can’t be trusted because prophets had “their own agenda.” Therefore, you become a hypocrite if you use scripture to back up your argument. Ask yourself what a prophet is? Essentially it’s someone who reveals God’s will through writing (scripture) or word of mouth. Since Christopher has brought to light “additional scripture” he is by default calling himself a prophet. What is his agenda since he says all prophets have their own agenda? His motive seems to be the $25.65 he charges for his “sacred” book on EBay.
I can only conclude that those who believe in Christopher’s novel DO NOT HAVE A TESTIMONY of the Book of Mormon. If this is the case there is no point in discussion.
I will only respond further if who ever addresses me confirms that they have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and explain to me how and when they think Joseph Smith went wrong. If they are not willing to do that then they have no business on this site other than to be a modern day Sherem, Nehor, or Corihor.
Thank you to all who have participated in the discussion so far. I do not believe in censorship, except in cases of flagrant offensiveness, and so I welcome any and all to this forum, whether or not you believe in the fundamental tenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The apostle John counseled us:
Putting alleged truth up to a spiritual test is an important part of coming to a correct understanding of reality. With that in mind, it should be noted that several groups have already done a critical analysis of Christoper’s “Sealed Portion,” and have not been impressed. See the following links:
To be fair, it is true that many valid spiritual truths have come through those who were apparently “rogue,” or outside the established religious establishment: Samuel the Lamanite, Joseph Smith, and Jesus to name some. However, it should be noted that Chris Namelka is not alone in his astonishing claim to have brought forth the sealed portion. Another organization has produced a different 2 volume version of the Sealed Portion, available now on Amazon.com!
I am fully disinterested in the sparring match between which Sealed Portion is the “true” one. My goal in this forum is to explore and study the Book of Mormon in its current published form, and I would respectfully ask that those wishing to discuss the alleged validity or falsehood of any other publication if they would please take their discussion elsewhere.
People can set all the rules, regulations, stipulations, parameters etc etc ad nauseum and say till they are blue in the face that the Sealed Portion The Final Testament of Jesus Christ in their opinion is false and untrue or reveals nothing new again etc etc etc ad nauseum.
However one fact remains
the Final Testament is Available for free reading at thesealedportion.com personal copies can be purchased.
ANY person so chooosing can go and read for themselves and it matters not one whit that the percieved rules set by a church or individuals have not been me.
To say the Final Testament exists is not a mocking the church or its corporate prophet it is simply fact.
Hem and Haw a long and as passionately as desired it won’t change what is.
The Book of Mormon and Sealed Portion The Final Testament stand as ONE and it mattereth not if an entire church or our Hell world of people deny them.
Rose,
Thank you for your pointed exhortation. All visitors can now consider themselves duly warned, and if they don’t prayerfully read the “Sealed Portion—The Final Testament,” it won’t be because you didn’t warn them.
Now that there can be no more question regarding your wishes regarding this publication, I hope we can put this matter to rest. All those wishing further information regarding Christopher’s Sealed Portion will please visit: http://thesealedportion.com/.
I agree that this is not the forum to argue about the “sealed portion” especially if this website is for the study of the Book of Mormon in its current (or even in its previously published forms). Mocking President Monson, Joseph Smith and the LDS church in general is fragrantly offensive to anyone that truly believes that the Book of Mormon is an inspired text. For the casual student that reads the Book of Mormon to simply gain a better understanding of its contents discussion of a “sealed portion” and the truthfulness or non-truthfulness of the LDS church is unimportant and distracting.
KC
Your deference is duly noted, let it be noted as well, while my words may come across exhortingly or in a warning sense, people are not required to read the Final Testament prayerfully or otherwise. Nothing hellish will happen to those who don’t read or beleive any more or less than those who’ve chosen not to read or believe in the first one third Book of Mormon.
The only wish I may have regarding the Book of Mormon or Final Testament is as I’ve said they are available for people to do with as they… Your last sentence states it best all those wishing….
Restfully, Rose
I respect all of you who have been defending the truth of the Book of Mormon, and calling out the false translator known as “Christopher”. Regardless of any facts the above saints have stated which prove Christopher’s false testament to be wrong in every way possible, one can learn the truth simply by asking God in the name of Jesus Christ if such things are true.
I earnestly asked God for the truth regarding The Final Testament of Jesus Christ. I recieved an answer. It is false. Christopher, what you are doing is wrong. Do you not realize that you will stand at the judgement bar before God, and admit to your sins?
I too am fascinated by what the Sealed Portion contains, but long ago you lost sight of the Spirit of Truth. You care more for the books contents, then the book’s meaning and purpose. I stand as a witness of Jesus Christ, and of the LDS Church, and of all things pertaining to his Church.
I testify that Christopher’s testament is false. May God have mercy upon you at the final day.
Daniel
16
UTAH
I do not believe I am inspired by the Spirit to post here. I desire it of myself. I just want to thank Daniel for his testimony. You are young and wise. I hope you serve a mission.
To KC:
I don’t think I’ve ever read a final response like yours in a blog. I think of D&C 121. (Reproving betimes with sharpness…and then showing an increase of love to whom thou hast reproved). I thank you for the post(s). It is an example to me. Daniel could learn a thing or 2 from you(That’s not a dis b/c I learned about 3 or 4!)
You guys are awesome. Would love to meet you KC.
And finally to those who believe on Christopher:
See B.o.M.
Pray
It was your 2nd to last post that I was talking about, KC.
How can anyone judge a book by its cover and “know it is false” or judge the man as “doing wrong” who translated it without ever meeting him?
If it IS a fraud or phony, as you say, and people are being deceived, then why in the world hasn’t the first presidency sent out a letter to every Bishop, to be read over every Pulpit, to warn their members about it? Ponder over that one!
Why in all the church manuals is any mention of the sealed portion totally skipped over and ignored? Shouldn’t members of the church be searching, seeking and hoping for it
Told not to question or debate your leaders to whom you pledge an oath of allegiance with an arm raised to the square, can’t you what blind and deaf sheep (robots) you have become?
What is wrong with debate, questioning or examining something? Haven’t we been taught how to judge? If it leads one to do good.. (using the parameters of Christ’s gospel to “do unto others…” and “love the Lord and your neighbor as yourself” or evil…evil treatment, evil speaking, etc.
Do you NOT REALIZE that if JSmith had NOT QUESTIONED God about the different religions of his day, that we would NOT have the Book of Mormon OR the LDS Church?
If you believe you already know everything there is to know then you do not possess a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Or if a glass is full how can one more drop of anything be added to it? Including more commandments, busy work, how many earrings in each ear, etc.
How is it that you can all view pornography and not feel a dark spirit that keeps you from returning to it?
But you’re very sure you will not read a G-rated book…
WHAT IF it IS the real deal?? How will you feel after putting your your false witness out to the world…the way many did to the man Jesus Christ?
Do yourself a favor and look up the word “priestcrafts” in the Book of Mormon…
Then go to an LDS Bookstore and check out whose “testimonies” are being SOLD for money…
Then Go read D & C 121 starting with, “Behold many are called but FEW are chosen; And why are they not chosen…”
Then go to D & C 84:starting with 71 and read about HOW you can recognize a “true prophet”
Then you will understand WHY The Sealed Portion could not possibly have come through ANY of the men you sustain as Prophet, Seers or Revelators.
And then perhaps you might realize hmmmm…maybe I ought to take a look at it? What harm could possibly come from a G-rated book?
Julie L. Taggart
When I first was approached about the Book of Mormon.. It was in 1977. I was born and raised in the Catholic Church. I did not have an allegiance to the Catholic Church.. which made it quite easy for me to look at other religions with interest. I came to the knowledge by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon was true. I also came to the belief and knowledge that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and had been given many truths revealed to him. But like all men of this earth.. and realizing that Joseph was the first prophet to be under a microscope (worldwide) he was not perfect.
All that withstanding.. the point is that it was by the power of God.. by the Holy Ghost.. that I came to believe in the Book of Mormon and in Joseph Smith. The two.. go hand in hand… for you can not believe in one without believing in the other. I heard about the TSP and started reading the “Lost 116 pages”. As soon as I came to the part where the mother was concerned whether or not her daughter would remain “single” (the word single is used) I got this sickening feeling and the imprint on my mind.. THIS IS NOT TRUE. I then did a search on the word “single” in the Book of Mormon and it popped up 3 times. Alma 49: 23, 3 Ne. 13: 22 & Morm. 8: 15. Not once was this word used to mean a woman who was not married. If this was the lost pages of the Book of Mormon.. then the same “flow” of words by the person writing it would be the same.. and the same for the time period. The fact that this word stuck out like a beacon light to me let me know I need not go any further. The spirit has testified to me concerning this.
Now.. just like many other religions have truth to them.. so does some of what is written by Chris have truth as well. But it is because of the deception that I dismiss the rest of his truth. Even Satan tells the truth most of the time. For if he lied ALL the time.. then truly no one would believe him and he could not beguile anyone. But he tells what truth he needs to get you to believe.. and then mixes it with lies and that makes the deception. You will read some of the concepts presented by Chris and they will ring true… because the Holy Ghost will testify to truth. But to take everything that man says as truth is not a wise measure… because I feel he knows he is a deceiver and that he is deceiving. I feel Chris sees nothing but fools in the human race.. and he will prove just how foolish some people can be. Those that bought into his deception.
Satan knows God.. knew him face to face. He was one of the morning stars… and yet.. Satan believes what he is doing is the right thing. He believes that if God would have chosen his plan.. that ALL would be saved… but now… he is going to show God just how right he was… and how the price of free agency is too high. But Satan does not know all of God’s plan.
The Book of Mormon IS the word of God. Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God. Yeah? So what’s your point?
Please give reference to what you’re talking about “single”.
And Please answer my question… if Christopher is a deceiver why hasn’t the 1st Pres. sent out a bulletin on it?
KC
Curious to see what you think about a possiblility concerning the writtings of the brother of Jared.
Does the Jaredite record, written by Ether, have to include the writtings of the brother of Jared? Could there have in fact been two seperate records (3 if you include the stone mentioned in Omni)?
Hey Julie, (you related to Blain?)
“And Please answer my question… if Christopher is a deceiver why hasn’t the 1st Pres. sent out a bulletin on it?”
Because they assume that the members aren’t complete morons and that if they actually read the Book or Mormon they would have the tools necessary to detect fraud. They might also see it as a good way to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Even the elect will be deceived, whether that’s you or the First Presidency isn’t really a contest. I don’t get a spirit of peace reading your posts or anything Christopher wrote but I get a feeling of peace when I listen to the First Presidency.
Julie says: if Christopher is a deceiver why hasn’t the 1st Pres. sent out a bulletin on it?
Richard replies: Why would a world wide Church put out a bulletin on some guy who claims he is the next true prophet of God? There are so many out there that are doing that. Chris is not a threat. Those who have been deceived are on their own. There will be many who are deceived but that is what free agency is all about. Even if you could give Chris 5000 people who believed, he would still not be a threat, but he has how many followers on his “marvelousworkandawonder” group; maybe 100? Yes, by all means put out a bulletin!
If you look at the TSP and do a search on the word single.. you will find 8 instances referring the keeping ones eye SINGLE to the glory of God.. and then the one instance.. (Remember.. this is the prophet Mormon telling the story and giving his “abridgment” to all the plates he has at his disposal.)
Lehi 4:37
37. Knowest thou not that I am even at this time ripe with child and that I will deliver this child in the wilderness? And my daughters; what shall they do when they are grown and have no man to choose from to be a husband? Shall they be SINGLE and barren all the days of their lives and perish in the wilderness?
That SINGLE word speaks volumes.
Are you serious??? “Single word speaks volumes” about WHAT?
Many, many more than the few on MWAW discussion group have read, recognized the veracity of TSP and are leaving the church. (These things are listed under “Things they don’t tell their members…” along with the Church’s finances, the stipends, perks and benefits the brethren make, etc., etc.)
If they think I am a “complete moron” …why would they go to the effort and trouble of holding a STAKE HIGH COUNCIL Court to excommunicate me (a female)— instead of the usual Bishop’s court?
Jonathan, you are a prime example of what the LDS Church is seriously failing to teach its members about the gospel of Jesus Christ…”do unto others what you would want them to do unto you”….
and a great reason why we are so ready for The Sealed Portion the Final Testament of Jesus Christ…but there are none so blind as he who can’t bring himself to read a book..I assume you’ve all read the Book of Mormon?? (Did that kill ya?)
You all sound exactly like those who cried…”A Bible, a Bible we have got a Bible.”
KC, you ask questions that would ALL be answered if you’d read TSP all the way through to the end like Moroni told you to read the first third of the gold plates. (it is free)
You could still decide at the end of it…it ain’t true…but at least one of you on here could speak from actually having read the book instead of presuming to know what is or isn’t in there.
I read the TSP and admit that it is well written. However, having a firm testimony of the BOM, I could tell almost immediately that it does not even come close to holding a candle up to the BOM or the Bible. There are contradictions all throughout the TSP. In fact, the title alone is a contradiction with the unsealed portions of the BOM. The “Final Testament of Jesus Christ?” In the book of Second Nephi, Nephi tells us that prior to the second coming we will have the Brass Plates as well as the reocords of the lost tribes. Where are those? How can TSP be the “Final Testament” of Jesus Christ when we have not yet received the testaments from the lost tribes? Did not Nephi tell us that the records of the lost tribes would be read from the roof tops?
The TSP is a clever fraud, but it is still a fraud. May God have mercy on your souls.
And likewise…on yours.
Wow, all this mercy on your souls seems just like words to me. Not something that one really feels towards another.
Julie, I understand how when one begins to believe something.. that one wants to “stick” by it. You opened your mind to the possibilities of more truth and in doing so.. you put your membership in the Church “at risk”.
Yes, I can see that if you believe Chris is your prophet.. then you can not have two prophets who are teaching different dogmas. You have to make a decision, a choice, and you made it. So why the astonishment that you would be excommunicated from the Church? You can not serve two masters. You can not state that Chris is the true prophet and also that President Monson is too. So, what does it matter if it was the Bishop’s or the Stake court that got the job done? It needed to be done. You no longer agree with the principles of the Church you were a member of, so why continue to be a member? And why would they want you to be a member of their organization when you really want nothing to do with it but tell others that they are wrong and that there is other “real truth” out there? I mean.. look at it from their point of view. They believe you are wrong. What if you are wrong?
I know many people in the Church that have come to understand more truths that what the Church presents. Joseph was “forbidden” to reveal ALL the truths because the people were not ready for it. But he did NOT reveal false truths either to lead them astray.
Yes.. he did teach some of those closest to him doctrines that are not taught in the church today. But that does not mean that he tried to deceive anyone and more than Jesus did when he told his apostles why he taught the people in parables. Read Matt 13: 10-11.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
So withholding additional truths is not new. The apostles knew much more than what they actually taught. Even Joseph Smith, after having many revelations from God, when he sent the apostles to teach he told them to teach faith, repentance and baptism to these people and nothing else.
The people and the world were not ready for some of the truths that Joseph Smith knew about. But I can tell you this much. Hyrum himself would not be the one to bring it all together and it would NOT be through the one called “Christopher”.
And when these truths are revealed to the individual.. it is not their responsibility to teach it to others.
You might look at the Mormon church as being corrupted now that you have found “real truth”, but it is not just the TSP you are asking people to buy into. If the TSP is true.. then so is Christopher Nemelka. But this is my belief. Christopher is not who he professes to be. Yes.. I know he says that in a former life, he was Hyrum Smith, the Prophet Josesph’s brother. He says that John the Beloved and the 3 Nephites spoke to him and he is doing the work of the Lord. He says that Joseph and his grandfather appeared to him and Joseph gave him the sealed portion to translate by the power of God.. blah blah blah. Yes.. I can believe that those kind of things can happen. But I also know the other things that Chris as said and done. And please.. don’t try to compare him with Joseph. A man who is called of God as a prophet, does not take multiple wives when he doesn’t even believe in the principle. Personally I feel he is just going with the flow and then making excuses for himself later.
There will always be those who want more truth and will step on anybody to get it. Laughable. You should step back and watch the drama play out in your group. It would make a great story for some anti cult magazine or tv show.
I do not think people should stop searching for the truth. But hopefully they will realize it when it is NOT truth. And unfortunately, there have been many examples of “leaders/prophets” that have lead their little groups to destruction. Oh these people “believed” in their leaders/prophets and believe in what they taught as “truth”. I say test the spirits but at least have the common sense to be true to yourself and the God with in that when it isn’t, to walk away. It it not required to read the entire book to know if it is true or not. I have never met Joseph Smith nor did I read the entire Book of Mormon before being testified to that what I was reading was true. So I can read what I did of Chris’s writings and know that they are NOT true.
Just thinking out loud here. Christopher recently wrote about the Spirit World.. and how there is NO Spirit world, but in his autobiography he tells of a suicide attempt where he visited the spirit world. I wonder what it is he now thinks he visited?
JD,
Like I have said before and to which you have eluded the first clue that the Sealed Portion is a fraud is it’s title, “the final testament.”
2 Nephi 29:9 …for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
There will never be a “Final Testament.”
Jules,
You related to Blaine? Anyway, I don’t think I am being unfair. Anyone that reads this thread will pick up on your condescending tone and your lack of respect for the First Presidency so I have responded appropriately. Christ was sarcastic with the Pharisees on more than one occasion and justly so.
Setting every argument aside I’ll come back to personal witness. I do not feel the truthfulness in your words. A spirit of peace doesn’t overwhelm my soul like it does when I came to know the Book of Mormon was true or the way I felt when President Hinckley spoke or when President Monson speaks. That’s the way we are taught to judge by Moroni (Moroni 7:16-17).
Why won’t I read the Sealed Portion all the way through? Because after reading the title and the first few paragraphs and examining the length I knew it was fiction. A person doesn’t have to eat the whole egg to know it is rotten.
I’m aware that there are things that exist within the church (not the church itself but within its membership) that would drive some people away and would cause many others to worry. There will come a time when something very trying on a large scale might happen. Some will be able to abide it others won’t. I always go back to how I felt when I came to know the Book of Mormon was the Word of God. If it’s true then Joseph Smith and his successors are prophets. If its true then the things that are stumbling blocks for you are nothing more than something I can walk around to get to where I am wanting to go. I trust that God will have a reasonable explanation for everything some day and my duty is to stay true. I’m sorry you lost your membership. I don’t think that is funny. It’s a tragedy.
Don’t know Blain.
A “tragedy” for who?
I was not “astonished” JD.
As you say…The church can do what the church has got to do!
It does not affect my happiness or peace in the least.
Julie,
It should not affect your happiness at all. You should be happy! It was your choice. I am just so sorry that your life has to be on display for all to see.
The tragedy comes from ones point of view when one believes that another is being deceived. It is one thing to believe in re-incarnation when the church teaches the doctrine is not true. It is one thing to understand principles or to have more knowledge of truth than others… like Christ did.. or Joseph did. It is quite another to separate yourself from truths that are still there within the Mormon Church and follow some guy who is very intelligent.. but in my opinion, misguided and a deceiver.
The “real truth” will one day come out about him.. like it has in the past and people had to “wake up” and smell the crap that was dished out. And even after all that.. he is showing how he can keep the deception going.. as there are those.. even the very elect.. that can still be deceived.
That is the tragedy.
Jules,
It’s a tragedy for you, Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father and for those who love you and put any effort into you. You once commented that it doesn’t matter if anyone reads the Sealed Portion or for that matter the Book of Mormon and that it didn’t matter if anyone came to know the truth of either, that if had no effect on their salvaton either for good or bad. You said you learned this philosophy from Christopher. If this is true and you hold to it why do you care if other people do what makes them happy (”blindly” belonging to a church and obeying its precepts)? Apparently you believe there can be no wrong choices but you are irritated about the about the actions the church chose against you. Why? If I had such a strong conviction against the church’s truthfulness I would volunteer to take my name of the roles and hold no ill-will towards the church if they did it before I had the chance.
Why people persist in violating the gospel of JC by judging should be a curiosity to you(s)all.
There you go again putting words in my mouth. You have NO idea what I believe or what I have gotten from whom…nor are you “listening”.
If you understood the principle that “God is no respecter of persons” then you would know that the “elect” means nothing more than “electing” (look up the definition) or “choosing” to hear/listen/read/be open/humble/easily entreated, etc., etc., nothing more.
Only those who elevate themselves above others would think that word means more than what it does.
“We accept the truth no matter what the source”. S.W. Kimball
Christ’s life, as well as his nude body (on the cross), was on display for all… am I better than He?
It should tell you only one thing…the price I am willing to pay for the “sweet fruit of the tree of life” or that Pearl of Great Price…
that my “children” and “wife” and my “brothers and sisters” and my “sons and daughters” might partake and have joy…
EVEN IF it means “risking” your mocking and scorning fingers from the “great and spacious building”.
Yeah, look at this crop of crap we’re being “deceived” into believing…
TSP Chapter 58
77 Yea, what is the message of the life and example of Jesus Christ?
81 Behold, the great and everlasting commandment and eternal law of happiness of the Father who created us all is this: That ye love one another as ye would have them love you.
82 And on this one commandment alone, doth all other commandments and laws stand; and there is none other commandment by which ye must live.
83 Yea, this is the great standard of the Lord. This is the embodiment of the words of Christ and the all-encompassing message that the Father hath given to His children from the beginning.
84 And on this standard, or on the words of Christ, shall all the children of God, yea, even every one, be judged according to their works.
85 Behold, every action, every thought, every reaction, even every time that ye use your free agency to act in the independent state in which ye have all been created, ye shall be judged according to this standard.
86 And if ye cannot love another as ye would have them love you, then ye shall not inherit the kingdom of God, and there shall be found no place in His kingdom for you, but ye shall take your place with those who rebelled against the plan of the Father in the beginning, even with Lucifer and those who followed him.
87 And now, I would admonish you to read and reread the words of Christ, even in all the scripture that he hath suffered to be written of him, and see for yourselves if his message doth not say these things unto you.
88 He is our Savior because he teacheth us these things that we might be saved. And all those who teach his words are the saviors of men and are one in mind and mission with the Father, who gave these words unto us all in the beginning.
89 And the Holy Ghost, who is one with the Father and the Son, shall teach these things unto all of us, even by giving us peace and happiness when we keep this great commandment of God.
90 And when the Spirit hath withdrawn itself from us, because we do not keep this commandment, then we are left unto ourselves and feel misery, strife, depression, loneliness, and pain.
91 Therefore, judge ye yourselves whether ye are at peace with yourselves and whether ye are happy. And if ye are honest with yourselves, then ye can judge righteously whether or not ye are prepared to enter into the kingdom of God and partake of His eternal happiness, which He hath offered us, forever.
92 And if ye are not at peace with yourself, ye shall be miserable and unsettled and continually searching for that peace and happiness that eludeth you.
93 Therefore, my beloved brothers and sisters, do unto others that which ye would have them do unto you, and ye shall be one with Christ, who is one with God, who is the Father who desireth that all of His children be one with Him.
94 This is the meaning and the message of the atonement of Christ. There is no other meaning, and there shall be no other meaning given forever. Amen.
Yes, it is a crop of, as you put it, crap. There is no such thing as free agency. That is one more thing that tells me it’s false. Moral agency was not free, it was purchased for a price. Also it says if you don’t inherit the Kingdom of God you are doomed to the same fate as Satan and the third of the host of heaven that lost their first estate. We know that outer darkness is reserved for only those who become Sons of Perdition. If you aren’t nice to people you aren’t automatically a Son of Perdition. These people usually find themselves in the Telestial Kingdom which is a lot nicer than Outer Darkness.
The Bible Matthew 24: 24,31
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
• • •
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
• • •
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Isa. 65: 9, 22
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
• • •
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
D&C 29: 7
7 And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;
The scriptures are very specific about the “elect”. I don’t mock you because of your beliefs. As I have said before.. my Holy Ghost has testified to me what truths there are. You have the right to follow whatever the wind blows.
To disagree is not to mock. To not accept your prophet will not send me to hell for all eternity.
I wish you God speed.
Moro 10:6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
Moro 7:14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which INVITETH TO DO GOOD, and TO PERSUADE TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge IT IS OF GOD.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe NOT IN CHRIST, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge IT IS OF THE DEVIL; for after this manner doth the devil work, for HE PERUADETH NO MAN TO DO GOOD, NO, NOT ONE; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
Yes, Richard…
“…for mine elect HEAR my voice and harden NOT their hearts;”
Exactly Julie,
I’m glad you referenced Moroni too. When someone tells us something Jesus taught us isn’t true and we believe it, it tends to make us have less faith in Him. Christopher says that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet. Joseph Smith was called by Jesus Christ to be a prophet. Therefore if you believe Joseph isn’t/wasn’t a prophet then you’re calling something good evil.
Jonathan, if you are going to bear FALSE WITNESS against the Prophet Joseph Smith, THEN attempt to attribute it to either The Sealed Portion (TSP) or Christopher then PLEASE print (or copy and paste) the quote (and reference it) from either the TSP or from one of Christopher’s two official websites (thesealedportion.com, Marvelous Work and Wonder yahoo discussion group).
Waiting…
While we’re waiting and waiting (since Jonathan will never be able to find such nonsense)…
I thought this an appropriate time to copy and paste Christopher’s response (re: Lehi’s descendants) to a critic who, like those on this site, make statements with no basis in fact…
Re: How Now Another Apostasy? by John Roberts
Admin
Christopher:
I have answered this critic within the text of his own question/diatribe:
Quote:
I’ve read The Sealed Portion and believe it’s utterly ridiculous. Not only does it completely lack anything sublime, it lacks anything that might indicate that it’s true. I mean, Lehi being the descendant of Ephraim, and the High Priest after the order of Aaron (poppycock, since he took great pains to say he was of the tribe of Mannassah, not Ephraim. And regardless of which branch, that still wouldn’t have made him a Levite. Add to that that Aaron held the Melchizedek Priesthood, while his sons held the Aaronic, or Levitical, and can the story get worse?) Closed Quote
The claim of this critic, that he has read The Sealed Portion, is negated in his opinion that it speaks of Lehi being a descendant of Ephraim. It is the Book of Lehi that makes this claim; and the claim is correct. The Sealed Portion says nothing about Lehi’s ancestry—not a word.
The critic is obviously an LDS member, who is wont to defend his religion and faith—the underlying premise of which, he will go on to destroy. By responding to this work negatively, he demonstrates exactly what this work points out about the false religions and precepts of so-called Christian faiths—that they have no understanding of the concept of what Jesus taught about love, acceptance of one’s enemies, and not judging or measuring another by one’s own standards.
But since he has posed the same critical examination that many before him have posed and many after him will, I will take each of his statements and confound them.
In this first paragraph (after he has shown by his own words that he did not read The Sealed Portion), he makes an attempt to discredit the fact that Lehi was a “High Priest after the order of Aaron,” indicating that “he” (Lehi) “took great pains to say he was of the tribe of Manasseh [the correct spelling].”
First of all, Lehi made the correct genealogy link to his ancestry according to his knowledge of Jewish tradition, which was provided for him in the Brass Plates that Nephi took from Laban. These were the same Brass Plates that taught Lehi and his descendants what the office of a High Priest actually was according to the Law of Moses. If Lehi and his children did not have a knowledge of this office (which is mentioned over 30 times throughout the Book of Mormon), nor have the Priesthood of Aaron according to the Law of Moses (mentioned almost 50 times), then Zeniff could not have known either how to establish the same offices of the Aaronic Priesthood that he conferred upon his son, Noah, and his contemporary, Alma—both High Priests in whom was passed on the “priesthood authority” to baptize the people. (The Melchizedek Priesthood is never mentioned in the Book of Mormon or in the Law of Moses outlined in the Bible, but was created by Joseph Smith for the “golden-calf-worshipping” people of his day.)
This critic’s desperate attempt to discredit my work has only shown his ignorance and lack of understanding of his own religious beliefs. In none of his (LDS) religious teachings does it claim that Aaron held the office of the Melchizedek Priesthood. (But of course, because LDS people believe in “modern-day” revelation, perhaps one of their current leaders can change the entire contents of the Bible to conform with LDS belief—then, and only then, would this critic have some viable stance to make.)
Now back to his claims that “he [Lehi] took great pains to say he was of the tribe of Manasseh”:
Lehi never said this; and most importantly, Mormon, the main author, abridger, and compiler of the Book of Mormon never said that Lehi was a descendant of Manasseh. Amulek said this. And he got it wrong. Amulek was a man who readily admitted that he didn’t know much about the truth. He related that he was a man “of no small reputation” who “acquired much riches” through his business pursuits. In other words, as Amulek preached to the people of the land of Ammonihah, he got a few things wrong, which obviously Mormon did not catch, nor did he care to change in his abridgement of the exact words Amulek spoke:
“Now these are the words which Amulek preached unto the people who were in the land of Ammonihah, saying: I am Amulek; I am the son of Giddonah, who was the son of Ishmael, who was a descendant of Aminadi; and it was the same Aminadi who interpreted the writing which was upon the wall of the temple, which was written by the finger of God. And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.” (Alma 10:1–3)
Mormon knew that he had correctly given the ancestry of Lehi in his abridgement that is known as the Book of Lehi. Furthermore, though genealogy might have been very important to Lehi, and of some importance to Mormon, it certainly was not to Nephi, whose own record replaced Mormon’s Book of Lehi for many, many years until the Book of Lehi was retranslated in 2004 along with the sealed portion of Moroni’s writings. Nephi wrote of his lack of interest of genealogy in 1 Nephi, chapter 6. Interestingly enough, however, Nephi included the words of Isaiah, also found inscribed on the plates of brass, in which Isaiah derides (as he does symbolically and eloquently throughout all of his writings) the very fact that some people think they are special because they are descendants of Ephraim, and others of Manasseh, and still others from Judah:
“Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh; they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.” (2 Nephi 19:21; compare Isaiah 9)
The only “poppycock” given here is that by this particular critic, who not only has not read The Sealed Portion, but obviously has not read the Book of Mormon.
Here is the link to read Christopher’s complete response to this critic’s comments and assertions.
http://qanda.thesealedportion.com/qna_threads//read.php?19,111,112#msg-112
Julie,
First let me say that it is not nice to post a link for us to read that we don’t have access to. For it says when you click on that link:
“Critic’s Forum This forum for critical questions from those who may find fault with this work.
Sorry, only registered users may read this forum.”
That too makes me wonder more.. what is the purpose of shutting out the world if this work is not his?
Second, there is such a difference between judging a man.. and judging the words of a man. Chris makes statements about Joseph Smith that he can in no way back up. “… but was created by Joseph Smith for the “golden-calf-worshipping” (by the way worshipping is spelled with one P… worshiping) people of his day.” Nice statement and it fits well within his explanation of the way things works. Just as it was easy for him to say.. “Amulek said this. And he got it wrong.” Then he continues with by trying to add the testimony of another.. “…which obviously Mormon did not catch, nor did he care to change in his abridgment of the exact words Amulek spoke:” If Mormon did not “catch” it.. then there would be no “nor did he care…” for he would not have known about it. If however Mormon did realize that there was an error.. to say that he let the contradiction go forth anyway would put him at odds with what the purpose of him making the abridgment was all about.
After all the words are written and explored and explained.. there still is only one resource we can go to… to obtain the truth. That is God.. and that is by the power of the Holy Ghost.
But one must first work it out in their own mind.. and then ask. As I have stated.. you don’t have to read the entire thing to ask if what you have read so far is the truth or not. For every man who decided to stand up and say that God hath spoken to him.. he to could recite the scripture “…for mine elect HEAR my voice and harden NOT their hearts;” and so if we don’t agree with this “prophet” we are then to believe that we must not be the Elect because only the Elect will hear his voice. Just another guilt trip trap.
I also feel that the good brother who Chris was responding to about the ancestry of Lehi.. had gotten to read the “Book of Lehi” in the same PDF file that the TSP is in. So for him.. the TSP Secured.PDF file is the TSP that he read from. Chris just liked to point out that it did not come from the TSP “section”… so that somehow negated his comment.
Sometimes.. some people are just to close to the tree to see the entire forest.
Julie,
Where do I bear false witness against Joseph Smith? You must be confusing me with Christopher. You even quoted him doing so:
“The Melchizedek Priesthood is never mentioned in the Book of Mormon or in the Law of Moses outlined in the Bible, but was created by Joseph Smith for the ‘golden-calf-worshipping’ people of his day.”
As far as it not being mentioned it talks about the Holy Order (the Melchizedek Priesthood) after the Son of God in Alma chapter 13. There’s further clarification in the Doctrine and Covenants, but you don’t believe in any revelation given to Joseph Smith.
I was sent this quote made by Chris:
“There is no such thing as a NDE. (Near Death Experience)
“One is either dead or alive.
“When the human essence leaves the human body, it does not record any
experiences. It only records when in the body. Therefore, the essences of those who claim NDE, (which the greater majority of us don’t have,) never really left their bodies. You’d be surprise how our sensory receptors are enhanced while unconscious. Consider the dreams that you have.”
This really contradicts his lengthy account in his autobiography where he explains he attempted suicide and had a near death experience where he went to the spirit world and mingled with numerous beings there. He presented this as being absolute truth.
I wonder how he would explain such a stark contradiction????
Seems to me absolute truth is based on Chris’s personal “at this time” perception of it.
“Richard” Why don’t you use your real name? LOL Why don’t you reveal who you really are and what you believe to this group? The “chains of hell” are closing tightly around you like a vise aren’t they? So sorry, bro.
Jonathan, YOU made the statement about JSmith being a “fallen prophet” and then tried to attribute it to TSP or Christopher.
Can’t find it can you?
You’d be wise to stop making accusations you can’t substantiate with fact.
Go to the website, hit on Q & A and then SCROLL DOWN…the entire thread is there. If it is within your realm of possibilities… read it with an open heart and mind. You might learn something.
Julie,
If Christopher admits Joseph translated the Book of Mormon he’s admitting Joseph was a prophet. If he then says that Joseph made something up for the benefit of calf worshippers then he’s saying Joseph was dishonest. Prophets aren’t dishonest. They don’t mislead. If he believes Joseph stooped to lying then he is saying Joseph was a fallen prophet because that’s what he would have been if both things are true.
This is from his site: “There is no need to listen to or follow any other person or institution�no religious or spiritual leader or guide, no proclaimed self-help guru or author, no political leader�absolutely no one! (And more importantly, no one needs to pay for their services.) All the power needed in order to gain personal satisfaction and happiness comes from within.”
He’s saying you don’t need to listen or follow Jesus Christ or any of the apostles, prophets, pastors, etc. whom he chose. He’s saying you don’t need to be numbered in the fold of Christ. He’s saying you don’t need to be subject to kings, rulers and magistratres. He’s essentially contradicting 1. Jesus Christ, 2. Joseph Smith, 3. The Book of Mormon, 4. The Bible and ultimately Heavenly Father.
You obviously do not believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God or that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If this isn’t true then you are deeply conflicted because Christopher’s philosophy contradicts the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ.
You can always tell when someone is “wrapped” up in a cult. They refuse to actually answer questions. They avoid them and only point back to what they have been told.
The chains of hell? My goodness.. and you are “sorry”? How sorry are you.. sis?
This is a waste of time. You are drinking the Kool-aid that Chris provides you… I want none of it. But I have to admit that the group is rather comical and it is a complete soap opera. It has some entertainment value.
Stepping in and bringing up my questions would only get me banned. Chris can handle insubordination for only so long and then he goes ballistic.
Example:
“Harry, if you ever mock my style of writing again and the way that I choose to teach what I know, you will be finding another venue for your entertainment and forming your own version of truth away from me and this work. This is not the place for your personal opinion. It is a place to discuss this work.
In fact, I am about to get rid of most of you who respond in this Discussion Group. RE-READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS ABOUT WHAT THIS DISCUSSION GROUP IS ALL ABOUT. !!!! UNDERLINE, CAPS, BOLD, ITALIC!!!!! :-)”
No Julie.. I think you need to stay where you are at. I use to feel bad for people like you who were duped into things.. but not anymore. Now I feel bad for just the innocent ones that are dragged along with. You are a big girl. You are the one who will deal with the consequences of your choices.. not me.. and not anyone else. I hope at least that the Kool-aid is sweet going down!
“Richard” “And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.” (Alma 12:11) But I know you don’t believe in the B of M.
If you want the answer to your question, join the group. I’m not going to rewrite it.
I could also say the same to you, “stay where you’re at” but you know there is no truth to be found “where you are at”, which is why you follow where’re we go
Jonathan, young brother, I don’t mean to be condescending…but you are still going to insist you think you know what anothers beliefs are when, indeed, you have NO IDEA!!
No matter what I write you still assert the same false assumptions and accusations without investigation.
It is pointless for me to continue when your mind is on “lockdown”.
But I do wish you the best.
Julie T.
Yes Julie.. that is what the Lord did with the Israelite’s. They did not want to converse with God directly.. but wanted Moses to do it so he gave them the lesser.
And Julie.. you are mistaken.. I do believe in the Book of Mormon. I just don’t believe the Lord is going to re-invent the wheel. Besides.. you are not authorized to do this work.
There are many truth’s that are out there… and the more truth we find.. the higher our path. But I do not find the truth in the teachings of Christopher Nemelka. I have no problem accepting other truths.. but his teachings are not. And if you believe that if you don’t follow Christopher.. you will go to hell.. then at least I have some good news for you. You won’t.
Matthew 13 (Plain and Precious words restored with the U & T)
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever receiveth, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance than those who do not receive; but whosoever continueth NOT to receive, from him shall be TAKEN AWAY even that he hath been given.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables that they might not have the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven revealed unto them; because they upon seeing, see not; and upon hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And thus is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but ye understand not; and see ye indeed, but ye perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed;
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross from that which they have heard from their leaders, thus their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed so that they cannot see the truth which I speak unto them. And their leaders tell them to listen not unto me, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see me in the flesh; and your ears, for they hear me in the flesh.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and many have not seen them in the flesh; and many have desired to hear those things which ye hear in the flesh, and have not heard them.
honest question: i see that in the beginning of this blog that bruce m. is quoted. he states that the sealed portion is going to be translated in the millenium. from where does he get this idea and where in the book of mormon does it state that the sealed portion would be translated in the millenium?
It always amazes me that people use comments made in scripture about a particular thing that was happening then.. and try to make it apply to now.
It is true that Christ explained to his disciples that the mysteries were not given to the Jews. What that shows is that the bible does not have the mysteries to teach. It shows that the Lord does not reveal all to all people. He reveals what the people can handle. He reveals what will do the most good… not that all truth must be expressed and taught now.
For if you believe what Christopher has to say.. then you must also realize that Joseph Smith has that same information. Christopher will tell you Joseph lead the people down the path they wanted to go.. Joseph lead the people down the path the Lord instructed him to lead. Joseph had many more truths that were taught to him that he did not reveal. He was not allowed to reveal at that time. If the truths had been reveal then.. they would have died right there and man advancement would have been stalled. For mankind was not ready for the whole truth. In each religion, there are truths that are taught that the other religions don’t believe in. But if you combined them all.. and actually threw out that which was man made.. you would have the truth.
Imagine what people would have thought if Mormons had proclaimed that re-incarnation were a true principle. There have been other religions doing it for centuries. Would people have accepted it any more or any quicker? As a whole.. NO.. they would not. And had that principle been taught or added to everything else that was being taught.. people would have stayed much farther away. The Lord prepares the people and feeds them milk until they can stomach meat.
I suppose that you could say that because Jesus taught for 3 years and at the end of that 3 years.. he only had 120 people who actually followed him. It wasn’t until after his death and his reappearance to many that people believed in him. Now that Christopher.. since 2004 has been teaching… and at the end of 5 years.. has how many followers? Very few. So there is the parallel. Christopher just needs to cross over to the other side and then people will start believing in him.
No.. I don’t think so. Christopher is no Christ.
RICHARD,
no one will answer this question so can you please take a stab at it?
honest question: i see that in the beginning of this blog that bruce m. is quoted. he states that the sealed portion is going to be translated in the millenium. from where does he get this idea and where in the book of mormon does it state that the sealed portion would be translated in the millenium?
thanks
Sure.. I will tell you what I know.
Read again what Moroni had to say about the sealed portion:
4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
(Ether 4: 4-7)
Looking at conditions of the “Gentiles” in today’s time and place.. I do not see them repenting of their iniquity nor becoming clean before the Lord. Do you? And that was one of the requirements.
And I certainly don’t see them exercising faith in Jesus Christ as the brother of Jared did… do you?
So… why would the Lord allow the sealed portion to be translated to a nation that is no where close to being righteous or clean.. and certainly does not have the faith required to receive them?
At what point in time do you think that will happen? Obviously not before the 2nd coming. After the 2nd coming those that remain will be that righteous.. and will have that kind of faith… so it fits very well that it will be translated in the Millennium.
If he did it before that time.. then that would certainly have the Lord casting his pearls before swine.
The people were not ready for the sealed portion to be revealed at the time of Joseph Smith… and they certainly are not ready for it now!
To Hu?
Richard (not his real name) speaks the truth but should only speak for himself in his last sentence… HE (personally) is not ready for the TRUTH (TSP)
See Ether 4:15 When YE shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause YOU to remain in YOUR awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, THEN shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from YOU–yea, when YE shall call upon the Father in my name, with a Broken Heart and a Contrite Spirit, THEN SHALL YE KNOW that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
Go read TSP for yourself (www.thesealedportion.com) and behold the Marvelous Work and Wonder.
Do not listen to men who imagine in their minds that they have some special calling or conduit to God.
If God is “no respecter of persons” would He have you put anyone or anything between you and Him?
What do you think “thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME” means??
Julie..
Did you just say.. “Do not listen to men who imagine in their minds that they have some special calling or conduit to God”?
If you are saying I have some special calling or claim a conduit to God.. you are speaking of Christopher and his claim.. not mine.
God expects every person to search, ponder and pray. The searching means to use your common sense.. use logic.. and use the spirit to make a determination. It is not me who is coming between God and anyone.
Even when I do speak the truth.. and logic.. you can’t see it. You have been blinded by the craftiness of men.
But that is your God given right.
I believe in every instance in which true prophets of God have been called to do a specific work (throughout the scriptures), each claimed they had a visitation from “angels” or the “ministering of angels” that revealed truths to them.
The thing people don’t understand is that these “angels” all had/have voice boxes.
“Truths” are never left to the imagination or perceived “revelation” of men to come up with on their own.
A good reason and example is why there are TWO churches (maybe 3) from the Book of Mormon itself—Because men make up things in their own mind.
(You know…. you did that yourself)
My friend’s husband was the secretary to the 12 and I asked her how wonderful it must be that the brethren are unanimous in the decisions they make.
She laughed and said, her husband said what’s amazing is that they can agree on anything at all. (waiting for the repercussions of that statement!! keep your ears open)
Christopher does claim that he has “angels” who “minister” to him—he never trusts what comes into his head–if he doesn’t hear it from the voice box of one of those “angels”, he doesn’t trust it.
NOT ONE of the prophets, seers or revelaters from Brigham Young on down to the present (or you) have EVER claimed to have had a visitation from one of these “angels”, who are none other than the Three Nephites and John the Beloved!
Wouldn’t it only make sense that they are still here and only make themselves known to those Truly Called and Chosen…
and not those who appoint themselves by either reincarnation, self- appointment, election or succession?
Julie,
You should have Chris tell you about the Bishop in Utah that has in fact dealt with the Nephite messengers. I wonder if the 3 Nephites notified Chris about it? But then he knows all this.
If I wanted to fool people… especially Mormon people.. visitations from heavenly messengers is a requirement. There is no other way that we would be believed unless we were to bring up something better than what Joseph had… or at least as comparable.
I certainly would never claim a visitation unless it happened to me. But that is me. I am that kind of person… I don’t tell fables.
Sorry but the “bishop”, like the rest who make similar claims, is making it all up in his OWN head—that’s the definition of CONjuring.
The difference between the likes of those you refer to and Christopher is that they have NOTHING to show for their supposed “visitation,” while Christopher has volumes upon volumes upon volumes, solving mystery after mystery after mystery.
What are you doing on this site “Richard” (or writing your own “fables”) if not trying to “fool people”??
this is in response to “richard’s” answer to my question of :i see that in the beginning of this blog that bruce m. is quoted. he states that the sealed portion is going to be translated in the millenium. from where does he get this idea and where in the book of mormon does it state that the sealed portion would be translated in the millenium?
—————————————–
who are the “gentiles” in todays time and place? And what is the iniquity that they must repent of?
And how is it that a person would know whether or not someone other then him/herself is excercising faith in Jesus Christ as the brother of Jared did especially when the lord declares “do not your alms before men”?
To answer your question as to “why would the Lord allow the sealed portion to be translated to a nation that is no where close to being righteous or clean.. and certainly does not have the faith required to receive them?”
Well, the book of mormon illustrates great examples concerning a nation or people that are spared or visited by prophets and/or the Lord because of the righteousness of a few. The most poignant example is when Christ visited those who were in Bountiful, “o all ye that are spared because ye were more righteious than they, will ye not now return unto me, and repent of your sins, and be converted, that I may heal you.” not only did Christ reaffirm that they were visited because they were “more righteous” but in the same sentence declared that they still must repent and become converted…And after he declared that, he revealed unto them the very things that are contained on the sealed portion that have been kept back because of unbelief of the “gentiles” AND the “house of israel”. They eventually rejected what was taught, but Christ, REGARDLESS OF THEIR “WORTHINESS” showed himself unto them because it was prophesied that he would. What person in this world thinks they have faith enough for Christ to show up, LET ALONE THE CONTENTS OF THE SEALED PORTION THAT CONTAINS WHAT CHRIST TAUGHT. Remember AFTER TEACHING THEM, he groaned within himself and said unto the Father : Father I am troubled because of the wickedness of the people of house of isreal.”—referring to the very people he was amongst.
It would behoove the reader to read the rest of the chapter to understand it’s full context and the circumstances of when the sealed portion will come forth and what would happen when it does. Let’s continue with Ether 4 beginning at verse 8:
[8] And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.
The “things” that the Lord is referring to is the contents of the sealed portion: “there never were greater things made manifest” (see verse 4). So when the sealed portion is given verse 8 prophecies that people will contend and deny “these things”, which no greater things has been shown. — But “let them be accursed for unto them will I show no greater things.” this prophesy certainly contradicts your assumption of:
“ After the 2nd coming those that remain will be that righteous.. and will have that kind of faith… so it fits very well that it will be translated in the Millennium.”
So how is it that those “righteous, with that kind of faith”, (“who have no need of repentance”), will contend against and deny, during the millennium, the very things they will accept because they are “righteous?”
[10] And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.
Again, the sealed portion will be given in a day that it will be rejected. The Lord reiterates that those who won’t believe his words (the “fullness” of the gospel and ALL of this revelations given to man as contained IN THE SEALED PORTION) won’t believe his own disciples whom he sent to declare his words (again referring to the sealed portion). But then “at the last day” those who rejected the sealed portion will know that “it was I that speaketh” and it indeed was his true disciples whom he sent that they rejected.
Who are his “disciples” that will be responsible for declaring “the greater things” which is part of the “great and marvelous work” of the Father?
John the beloved,
1 nephi 14:
[20] And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
[21] Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
[22] And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.
[24] And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
[25] But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
[26] And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.
The 3 “nephites”,
3 nephi 28:
[26] But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.
[27] And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.
[28] They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.
[29] And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.
[30] And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.
[31] Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;
[32] Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
[33] And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.
[34] And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;
and the “marred servant”,
3 nephi 21:
[7] And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things — it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
[8] And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
[9] For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
[10] But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
Back to ether 4:
[11] But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.
So, amongst all those who do not believe, there will be those who do believe, which fact is attested to by the following verses:
1 nephi 14:
[7] For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other — either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
3 nephi 21:
[9] For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
Why do the above verses prove the fallacy of thinking that the “Father’s Work” being referred to will take place during the millenium? 1) because in the millenium NO ONE WILL BE BROUGHT DOWN INTO CAPTIVITY, EITHER TEMPORALLY OR SPRITUALLY, and 2) refer to D&C 45: 59 which states: “For the Lord shall be in their midst and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.”
Christ will be the lawgiver in the millenium, he is not “a man that will not be believed”, when same said man “declares it unto them.”
let’s also throw in 1 nephi 13: 39– “ And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.”
what need have we, during the millenium, of ANY BOOKS WHATSOEVER, WHEN THE LORD HIMSELF WILL BE IN OUR MIDST GIVING US THE LAW FROM HIS OWN MOUTH? so, “it does NOT fit very well that the sealed portion will be translated in the millenium.”
to continue….and when those who believe read the sealed portion the Lord will visit them with the manifestation of his spirit; they shall know that those things written are true BECAUSE IT PERSUADETH MEN TO DO GOOD.
[12] And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good IS OF ME; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me — that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.
[13] Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
[14] Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
This is the “wickedness” that the “gentiles” and “the house of israel” must repent of : UNBELIEF, and considering “whatsoever things that persuadeth men to do good” to be evil. The sealed portion would not come forward as a result of the UNBELIEF IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. How does one repent of unbelief: START BELIEVING! (and call those things that persuade men to do good, good)
Remember, “i speak unto you as IF YE WERE PRESENT, but behold ye are not…” If that’s the case, why would the Lord and Moroni say these things in this manner to those who are “righteous” enough to be in the millennium? They are speaking to us AS IF THEY ARE IN OUR DAY, WHICH IS TODAY—NOT THE MILLENNIUM! The point is he is speaking to all those who receive and read the book of mormon and claim they believe in it. If your reasoning and assumption are correct regarding these versus, the millennium, and the sealed portion— then you are saying that Moroni and the Lord would be declaring this message of “rending the veil of unbelief” to those “righteous” that live on the earth during the millennium. So once again, it does NOT “ fit very well that it [the sealed portion] will be translated in the Millennium.”
(ether 4:)
[15] Behold, when YE shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, THEN shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you — yea, WHEN YE shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
[16] And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.
[17] Therefore, when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land.
Again, YOU claim that in the millennium only “righteous” will remain. IF they are righteous, why does moroni state that in order for them to “know of the greater things” they must rend their veil of unbelief which cause them to remain in a state of wickedness, hardness of heart, and blindness of mind? Though the “gentiles” as a whole are “wicked”, the Lord calls upon each individual to rend their veil of unbelief; this is evident of his saying the word “YE”. So the Lords time-frame for revealing “the things which have been kept hid from the foundation of the world” to all the “ye’s” appears to be determined by the individual:
Mormon 8
[12] And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.
Mormon 9:
[25] And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth.
[36] And behold, these things which we have desired concerning our brethren, yea, even their restoration to the knowledge of Christ, are according to the prayers of all the saints who have dwelt in the land.
[37] And may the Lord Jesus Christ grant that their prayers may be answered according to their faith; and may God the Father remember the covenant which he hath made with the house of Israel; and may he bless them forever, through faith on the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
especially concerning US in these days:
2 Nephi 26:
[12] And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;
[13] And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith.
[14] But behold, I prophesy unto you concerning the last days; concerning the days when the Lord God shall bring these things forth unto the children of men.
And yet, even though it seems that the Lord may intervene according to the faith and desires of a people or person, this intervention is still always on his time table:
D&C 43:
29 For in mine own due time will I come upon the earth in judgement and my people shall be redeemed and shall reign with me on earth.
30 For the great Millenium , of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come.
Sad thing is, all the scriptures quoted in this post are just a small fraction concerning the Father’s Work in the LAST DAYS or LATTER DAYS…which ‘days’ are ALL PRE-MILLENIAL. if these other uncited scriptures are needed to be typed out here for the convincing of those who are stricken with the “iniquity of unbelief” concerning the Father’s work that has already commenced upon this earth, then just ask and i might just post em if you’d like—or better yet, search yourself.
I anxiously await the arrival of the millenium where none of us will ever have to read another book again. till then, the sealed portion and john’s personal unfolding of his own revelation suits me just fine.
say what…hu?
PS: so i repeat: i see that in the beginning of this blog that bruce m. is quoted. he states that the sealed portion is going to be translated in the millenium. from where does he get this idea and where in the book of mormon does it state that the sealed portion would be translated in the millenium?
KC and others, this last reply by whomever he/she is, has given the best evidence so far from the Book of Mormon itself (Jonathan, et.al) for the existence of The Sealed Portion (for which this blog site was originally set up).
It is admittedly lengthy but outstanding and if there are ANY on this site who ARE truly seeking to know the truth, I urge them to read, study and ponder this post.
As I mentioned earlier there are four quasi-mortal men who assist Christopher (the translator) in this work…if you doubt their existence then please re/read 3rd Nephi 28.
Once again, Adding my witness
Jules,
Hey big sister, I’ll be happy to respond to the long post.
I don’t know where McConkie gets his opinion about when the sealed scriptures will be offered to the world. I don’t really care. He has been wrong before. If the First Presidency offers up the Sealed Scriptures before the Millenium then obviously he is wrong. If they bring them to light during the Millenium he is right.
The “gentiles” are those (pilgrims, etc. and their posterity or anyone else) that came across the sea to inherit the Promised Land. “Repentance” is referring to accepting Christ and living the gospel. It says this pretty plainly in First Nephi.
How is a person to know whether or not someone other then him/herself is exercising faith in Jesus Christ? I’m assuming this is asking about someone who receives the things Ether talked about. If that’s the case it doesn’t really matter. If someone has their calling and election sured, which is what happens when you receive the things Ether talked about, they will not share that news with anyone. They will be commanded to keep it sealed until they are commanded to reveal it.
“The book of mormon illustrates great examples concerning a nation or people that are spared or visited by prophets and/or the Lord because of the righteousness of a few. The most poignant example is when Christ visited those who were in Bountiful.”
That was then, this is now. You forget When Christ came the first time the earth was still in its telestial state and those who were spared in the Americas were those who “were more righteous than they [who were destroyed].” When Christ comes again the Earth will be burned and cleansed and receive its Paradisical Glory. Only those worthy of abiding those conditions will remain. Do they have to be perfect to stay? No, but they will have to be more righteous than those on the Earth when Christ was resurrected. The scriptures also say that righteous people will be spared that do not yet believe in Christ. Their “repentance” like the “repentance” of the gentiles mentioned in First Nephi is accepting Christ and joining His church. Every knee will eventually bow and every tongue confess that He is the Christ the same way it happened in the Americas where EVERYONE, after he taught the people, was eventually converted. Satan will be bound in the Millenium the same way he was bound in the America’s: by the people’s righteousness. At the end of the Millenium Satan will be loosed. How? The same way he was loosed before; the people will become prideful, reject truths and will open their hearts once again to Satan.
“What need have we, during the millenium, of ANY BOOKS WHATSOEVER?”
There’s nothing in the scriptures that describes a world or kingdom without books. John the revelator speaks of two books out of which the world will be judged. Jesus commanded his prophets and apostles throughout time to write down his commandments and revelation. This will always be, because there will never be an end to God’s word, now or ever. God’s methods never change. He always used prophets and always will and whether we gaze into a Urim and Thummin, a computer screen, or a scroll, their words will be written.
Christopher’s Sealed Portion novel did not fill me with peace like the Book of Mormon does. That is how I know it is not of God. Moroni tells us that is how we judge. I did not have to eat the whole egg to know it was rotten. A prophet doesn’t bring fourth good and bad fruit. Christopher speaks against the prophet; a prophet for whom I received a peaceful witness was called of God. I don’t need any more evidence than that.
Wow.. the book of Mormon is here to convince Jew and Gentile and the world has not even accepted it yet… so why would they all of a sudden believe that there is additional scripture that is also the truth???
And the sealed portion that is now more true than the Book of Mormon? So they should just readily accept it?
They can’t accept the first third.. but oh yes.. they will accept the next two thirds. And they will accept it from Christopher??
Give me a break!
Perhaps someone here can post the link to the video of the Martin Bashir program entitled “Faith Matters” that featured M.R. Ballard and Q Cook?
“Richard”, 13 million people accept the B of M as the word of God (we here believe in the B of M even though you don’t).
I understand why you are so green with envy of Christopher.
Once he began to reveal and expound upon the truth, exactly as he prophesied would happen, you lost your following didn’t you.
While we surely hoped (for your sake) that it might have brought you a “broken heart and contrite spirit” (the prerequisite to learn and understand truth) you have allowed it to make you bitter and angry.
I’m very sorry for you bro, but you built your “congregation” upon a sandy foundation. What did you expect?
From the TSP 66:
“79 And like it was with the message of Moses among the Jews, and the message of Jesus among the Christians, even the message of all the holy prophets of God; yea, in the days following the death of Mohammed the people shall also corrupt his message and do those things which are most abominable in the sight of God,
and change the meaning of the Holy Quran, which shall be given unto the people who would become known of themselves as Muslims, being called this because of their belief in the religion of Islam, which shall be that which is like unto the religion of the Jews, and the religion of the Christians, and the religions that came to be because of the followers of the prophets of God, who have been called to teach the gospel of the Father unto the people of their own cultures.
80 And as soon as these great prophets left the people—most of them being killed by those who would not accept their teachings of the word of God—their followers corrupted the word of God and set themselves up above their neighbors and proclaimed that their prophet was he who was greater than the last, or greater than the prophet of their neighbor. (exactly has been done with JSmith and his followers)
81 And thus in the effort of the Lord to make all people of the earth his sheep, and teach his sheep ONE doctrine, which was the doctrine of the Father, even that His children should love one another; yea, in spite of his efforts, the people reject the shepherd and become prideful and put themselves firmly in the grasp of Satan.
82 And Satan useth these religions of men to make war and reign with blood and horror upon the earth as he had promised to do in the beginning.”
The pharisees, saducees, ministers, popes and prophets, also taught/teach their followers never to question or debate their leaders and that if it doesn’t come through them (setting themselves up as IDOLS between their followers and their God), then it/they should not be given any credence.
But it mattereth not, young bro Jonathan, for in the end you WILL accept Christ and his messengers.
Below are the words of Matthew 10 wherein the plain and precious words have been restored:
11 And into whatsoever city or
town ye shall enter, ye shall
preach my word and there abide
until ye have inquired who in it is
worthy by the way in which they
receive you.
12 And when ye come into an
house, salute it as if they who
reside therein are worthy, so that
all might have equal opportunity
to hear my words.
13 And if the house be worthy,
the peace which your message
brings shall come upon it. But if
it be not worthy, let your peace
remain with you and be not
dismayed that they have refused
you. For if they refused you, they
would have not received me.
14 And whosoever shall not
receive you into their house, nor
hear your words, when ye depart
out of that house or city, shake off
the dust of your feet and concern
yourself no more with them. For
they who shall reject me are still
the Father’s children; and He
loveth them as He loveth me. And
when I come unto them in the
glory that I have received of my
Father, THEN shall they receive
me.
15 But verily I say unto you, It
shall be more tolerable for the land
of Sodom and Gomorrha in the
day of judgment, than for that city.
For had I came unto these cities
and did the works that I have
done among this people, surely
they would have repented of their
evil ways and returned unto the
Father.
16 Behold, I send you forth as
sheep in the midst of wolves, who
given any opportunity shall
devour you. And these wolves are
the leaders of this people and the
serpents who bite them and make
them sick with their venom. But
the people DO NOT KNOW they have
been bitten, nor do they realize
they are sick and diseased. Be ye
therefore wise as these serpents in
that ye understand the ways in
which they inflict the people, so
that ye can heal them. But be ye
not like them, but be ye harmless
as doves, bringing peace into
whatever city ye enter.
17 But beware of these men who
are the serpents: for they will
deliver you up to their councils,
(or “COURTS”) and they will scourge you in their
synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before
governors and kings because of
the things which ye teach the
people for my sake. And your
words shall stand as a testimony
against them and the Gentiles; for
in the day of judgment, these will
have NO EXCUSE for rejecting me
as did the Jews before them.
Julie XO
Jules,
Stop, I’m starting to become attracted to you.
I’d thank you and tell you I’m flattered except I believe you mean… “attracted to the Truth.”
Jonathan,
No, I’m attracted to you. You’re fiesty.
LOL
When you quote the TSP… it sounds like the words of Christopher.
And Julie.. I have no following, I never had a following.. so I can’t lose what I never had. I never started a following. I am not green with envy. LOL I am not even angry or upset.
I leave your tsp book to you. The day that it is really translated will truly be a happy day.
For those of you who are waiting for the sealed portion to be translated…
You shall wait into the eternities.
It is HERE, it is the REAL DEAL, and it is GLORIOUS AND BEAUTIFUL.
But alas, my brothers, you are looking beyond the mark.
14 But behold, the Jews (LDS) were (are) a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble. (Jacob 4:14)
The Serpent is raised upon the rod and all one need do is look up to be healed…
But you would not… and all because you lack a broken heart and contrite spirit…
Besides that what could a woman possibly know???
Oh how my heart grieves for you…
Jules,
I’ll never believe Christopher’s Sealed Portion but I still love you.
forever your interfaithful admirer,
Jonathan
my dearest brother jonathan, this is written with a smile and perhaps just a little sattire….
first, i didn’t ask what repentance was. i asked what was the iniquity that [they] needed to repent of?
you say:
“How is a person to know whether or not someone other then him/herself is exercising faith in Jesus Christ? I’m assuming this is asking about someone who receives the things Ether talked about. If that’s the case it doesn’t really matter. If someone has their calling and election sured, which is what happens when you receive the things Ether talked about, they will not share that news with anyone. They will be commanded to keep it sealed until they are commanded to reveal it.”
these two last sentences are absolutely and totally assumptuos with zero substantiation.
“calling and election made sure”…. i guess our Father truly is a respector of persons and will declare one’s salvation is secure while all the 99.9999999% of the worlds is outta luck. no such thing as calling and election made sure, it’s just a vain and foolish imagination from those who followed Joseph Smith and thought they were a “peculiar people” who held a “royal priesthood.” also, the “doctrine” of calling and election that has flourished in the lds church had/has nothing to do with being shown what Ether talked about.
“THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW”—- resonates perfectly with those who responded to Christ that said: “if we lived in the days of our father’s we would not have rejected and killed the prophets.” (”OH YES, YOU WOULD HAVE”, CAME THE ANSWER FROM JESUS)
“and we did liken all scriptures unto us that it might be for our profit and learning”….naaaaaa, lets not…. “that was then, this is now.”
nope, certainly didn’t forget that the earth was in a telestial state when Christ came the first time (what state would i think it would have been in–haha), but what is so ironic….it will still be in a telestial state when he comes the second time, but what will return it to a paradisiacal glory? (do you know what makes a telestial, terestial [paradisical], and celetial world different from one another?)
the earth will be burned and cleansed …. with the sword and sickle of truth. unfortunately for gun loving christians and mormons who await the day that their god kills/destroys their fellow “wicked” siblings “with fire” so they can live in peace because they are so righteous, they will become very sad when Christ empties the prisons and sets free all the pedophiles, murderers, and rapists and unconditionally forgives all. then the parable of the prodigal son and loving father that christians and mormons thought was just a lovely story will unfold and come to fruition before their eyes when Christ cooks up the fatted calf himself and serves it to those who were condemned by their “righteous” siblings. “i have not come to destroy the world but to save it, and all those the father hath given me will not be lost and shall be saved.”
“the first shall be last and the last shall be first” yup, jews are the first and the gentiles are the last, and who are those gentiles that rejected the fullness of the gospel (the same thing the jews did when moses received it and also a SECOND TIME when Christ brought it himself)—those gentiles are the latter day saints. they first rejected the Gospel when Joseph Smith gave it and AGAIN have rejected it from the “disciples of the Lord”—even from the mouth of Christ.
therefore, to prove that the Latter Day Saints would have rejected Christ as did the jews, our Father had to send a chosen vessel that was identical in his mission and his appearance: “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.” (REV 14:14). the Latter Day Saints did reject this very one that is “like unto the son of god” and will continue to reject him…..then they shall know that they were no better than the jews and that what they claimed they would never do, they actually did:
” And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day..” (ether 4:10)
“For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.” (3 nephi 21:9,10)
isn’t it very interesting that Christ does not say “although a prophet, seer, and revelator shall declare it unto them.” nope, he just say’s a “man”. a poor lowly man—-of course, who would believe such a man (certainly not 13 million people) REMEMBER, the book of mormon is written to those who believe it. and if the majority of those who believe it are LDS, he’s telling these individuals in the last days that a man will declare this….why do you think it is described as a marveous work and wonder? Maybe if Christ dressed up like the pharisees, saducees, scribes and philosophers, then grinded the faces of the poor, charged people a price to offer up sacrifices at the temple, condemend homosexuality and declare women to be subservient to men and the “synogogue”— then maybe they just would not have crucified him. but, unfortunately and fortunately, Christ preached and did just the opposite of these things. Christ declared to the Jews that the very center of their corruption and idolotry was their synagogues, TEMPLE ORDINANCES, and HIGH PRIEST LEADERS(which leaders declared themselves to be prophets, seers, and revelators and were sustained by the people as such)–in a nutshell, their self exaltation is what Christ condemned: “he who exalteth himself shall be abased and he who is abased shall be exalted”. do i really need to provide the dollar statistics on how much money is spent on temples in these last days for the sole purpose of self exaltation versus the amount spent on doing the works of Christ? “but many will say we have done many works in your name…and i will say: depart from me, YE NEVER KNEW ME…when i was naked you clothed me not, when i was an hungered you gave me no food, when i was homeless you provided no shelter, etc” so, when Christ comes again, what message do you really think that he will preach….since NO VARIABLENESS IS IN HIM, it’s a pretty good chance that he will give the exact same message to the “one and only true church” and “chosen people of god” that are awaiting for THEIR FIRST ADVENT OF THEIR MESSIAH.
since the Lord himself advises us to search prophet of isaiah (but “that was then”..:) lets see what he’s got to say:
56:
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.
and regarding those whom the PEOPLE consider to be true prophets in the last days:
jeremiah 23:
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false adreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.
YOU’RE SO RIGHT JONATHON….”THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW”…for “IN THE LATTER DAYS YE SHALL CONSIDER IT PERFECTLY.”
may all like minded people as Jonathon continue to exalt themselves.
PS: the ONLY book that will be in THE KINGDOMS OF GOD will be YOUR BOOK OF LIFE WHICH WILL BE CONTAINED IN YOUR HEAD. the word of god endures forever NOT BECAUSE IT’S WRITTEN IN A BOOK BUT BECAUSE THE WORD OF GOD IS CHRIST HIMSELF WHICH PROCEEDING FROM HIM IS THE UNIVERSAL LAW OF “LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF”—THE LAW OF THE “GOSPEL”.
….for they despised the words of plainness….they despised the words of plainness AND AFTERWORDS BUILT A TEMPLE:)
TO “RICHARD”:
“Wow.. the book of Mormon is here to convince Jew and Gentile and the world has not even accepted it yet… so why would they all of a sudden believe that there is additional scripture that is also the truth???”
DO THE AUTHORS OF THE BOOK OF MORMON EVER STATE THAT IT INDEED WOULD CONVINCE ALL THE JEWS AND ALL THE GENTILES? FURTHER, WHERE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON DOES IT STATE THAT THESE SAME UNCONVINCED JEWS AND GENTILES MUST ACCEPT THE UNSEALED PORTION OF THE BOOK OF MORMON BEFORE BELIEVING IN THE SEALED PORTION?
some people believe in the book of mormon and have never read the bible. some believe and have accepted The Sealed Portion and have NEVER READ the unsealed portion of the Book of Mormon nor even care to. some people’s belief and desire to know truth have short legs, only having the capability to step up to the next stair only; while others can be on the landing and bypass 3,4,or even 5 stairs at a time! then some actualy have the capability to just jumping to the top skipping over all the religious bull.
“And the sealed portion that is now more true than the Book of Mormon?
NOPE. the sealed portion in no more true than the book of mormon as the TRUTH is no more true than the Parables that it hides behind. also, “true” is an extremely vague word and can be very misleading at times. i mean, was there ever a time that a “new truth” contradicted an “existing truth”—–ABSOLUTELY; but if you don’t believe so, then i guess the earth is still flat.
“So they should just readily accept it?”
Christ really did walk and minister among thousands upon thousands. he preached his Father’s Word and performed his Father’s Work—yet only less than 1 percent remained with him. if Christ is not even “readily” accepted if he were personally with the people, i’m sure it must be a bit more difficult to accept The Sealed Portion that contains ALL THE REVELATIONS THAT CHRIST HAS GIVEN TO MAN. “more blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe.”
“They can’t accept the first third.. but oh yes.. they will accept the next two thirds. And they will accept it from Christopher??”
NO, THEY WON’T ACCEPT IT OR BELIEVE IT “ALTHOUGH A MAN DECLARE IT UNTO THEM” unless they “rend their veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, THEN shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you [shall be given to you].
what does blindness and hardness mean anyway?!?!?!?!?!
“Give me a break!”
I LOVE KIT KATS…YOU TOO!?
Hey brother/sister Hu,
I never said God would kill/destroy the wicked when Jesus returns again. He did. It’s in the scriptures. I’m sure a lot of wicked Mormons will parish too just like those who are guilty of being as intolerant as they accuse Mormons of being. God indeed is not a respecter of persons. Everyone is accountable for his or her thoughts and actions and judged according to the light and knowledge they have. Obviously, someone who didn’t have the gospel available to them will not be judged the same as someone who was raised and nurtured in an ideal environment. Yes, pedophiles, murderers, rapists and any other class of sinner except those who deny the Holy Ghost will eventually be forgiven or pardoned. Everyone that came to this Earth will be resurrected and receive some kind of glory and fulfill Jesus’ words “I have not come to destroy the world but to save it, and all those the father hath given me will not be lost and shall be saved.”
The doctrine of calling and elections sured can be found in the scriptures, and specifically named and described in the Doctrine and Covenants. But since you don’t regard Joseph Smith as a prophet this is moot.
“The ONLY book that will be in THE KINGDOMS OF GOD will be YOUR BOOK OF LIFE WHICH WILL BE CONTAINED IN YOUR HEAD.”
This last sentence is absolutely and totally assumptuos (assumptive is probably a better word) with zero substantiation.
It’s obvious you don’t have a testimony of Joseph Smith. It’s therefore impossible for you to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon or even the “Sealed Portion” since Christopher claims it is complementary and sprang from the same source.
You come across not as someone concerned about the salvation of sinners but as a bitter anti-Mormon who disdains the LDS church and its members. Are you one of the pedophiles, murderers or rapists that Jesus will release from prison or are you just another hypocrite pointing out the faults of others while ignoring their own? If a hypocrite is worse than a murderous child rapist then you’re in just as much trouble as you claim every Latter-day Saint is in.
my dearest brother jonathan, this is written with a smile and perhaps just a little sattire….
Must I repeat that: this is written with a smile and perhaps a LOT OF SATTIRE….
(responding by topics in order of your previous post)
When Christ refers to destoying the wicked and separating the tares from the wheat and gathering the tares to be burned prior and at his second coming—-this is symbolic. The truth is what will “destroy” them and cause the “wicked” to weep, wail, and gnash their teeth and an unquenchable fire wil ingite within them. I do not accuse and condemn mormon, christians, and muslims, or any other religion that thinks that only their definition of good will survive the second coming. If you would read from a different perspective, I am focusing on the Love of God for all those who are condemned by the masses, especially from religion. I am merely defending and defining the real forgiveness and “love” that Christ and our Father has for all people. Are you upset at Christ and his apostles calling the most predominant religion/church of their time HYPORCRITES? To identify truth is not the same as judging and condemning. There is not one thing that I could say that would be more offensive than what Christ and his apostles taught to those in the synagogue…NOT ONE THING. (which very same things he will IS saying to the LDS church especially).
“I’m sure a lot of wicked Mormons will parish too just like those who are guilty of being as intolerant as they accuse Mormons of being.”
I do not think anyone will “parish” as you believe they will. I used the word “sad” to describe the feelings/state of mind of “gun loving” mormons, christians (muslims, etc) when those whome they think would have been destoyed are openly and unconditionally forgiven by Christ. What intolerance is there about saying that?
You say the doctrine of calling and election is taught by Joseph and found in the doctrine and covenants. Question: WHAT VERSION OF THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS?
If you do not know the history of changes and alterations made to the Book of Commandments which Joseph was not aware of…then it would behoove the honest seeker of truth to familiarize themselves with said changes. Notice I said Joseph Smiths followers, not Joseph Smith. You assumed that I do not believe that Joseph Smith was/is a prophet. That assumption in false. Just as the Israeliste (THE “FOLLOWERS” OF MOSES) altered his words and ascribed their own meaning to them—so did the Latter Days Saints that came out west who followed Brigham Young and all others who formed a church based on the “teachings” of Joseph Smith; they not only changed/altered/deleted many passages that were contained in the original book of commandments, but also ascribed their own meaning to what they thought Joseph meant. (then the further you get downt the stream the dirtier the water gets—-apostasy). Anyway, it is this perverted understanding of “calling and election” that i declare once again that “it has nothing to do with what Ether talked about”.
NO, NOT EVERYONE WILL receive a resurrected body, not those who “die the second death”…but of all those who choose to live the law of the gospel “will not be lost”—or in other words they will receive a “degree of glory” and reside in the kingdom of god forever.
Regarding the “book of life” that will be in your head….same goes for me and all people. They will have their own book of life…which contain THEIR LIFE. They will have a perfect recollection of all things premortal, mortal, post mortal. The unsealed portion of the book of mormon contains the “lesser portion” of those things that Christ taught the people. What NEED have we of a book that contains parables and metaphors that mask the truth when in the kindgom of god we will be living in truth with a perfected body with a perfect brain that has extraordinary abilities to create pure happiness and joy forever? Certainly, IF YOU WANT a book to read in the kingdom of god, no one will stop you!
Again you assert that I do not have a testimony of Joseph Smith and therefor cannot have one about the book of mormon and the sealed portion as well. In my previous post I have cited from the book of mormon numerous times, especially regarding the marred servant, the 3 nephites, john the beloved, the father work, the marvelous work and a wonder, having faith as the brother of jared, christ visiting the land bountiful, etc. Christopher does not infact claim that the source of the sealed portion is the same as the book of mormon; yes, the content is found on the same gold plates that joseph smith had, but the source of the material contained on the unsealed portion is different from the source of the material conatined in the sealed portion. This is detailed in the book of mormon itself, the source and chronology of the unsealed and sealed portion. But….that would take time, allbeit not much, to do a personal research for yourself and see what you come up with.
Regarding your last paragraph in saying that i’m not concerned for sinners but come across as a bitter anti mormon. Again, there is a lot assumption and some pretty poor deductive reasoning. I was born and raised lds and all my family are lds. three of my closest friends are lds and we went on missions together and had very similar thougths regarding the condition of the church. However, when I merely told them that I read the Sealed Portion….have I heard from them again!??? do they talk to me anymore??? because I understand the veracity of the claim and it’s implications and how the precepts of man can cause the human mind to become blinded, AND SINCE SOMEONE SALVATION IS NOT CONTINGENT UPON ACCEPTING ANY SCRIPTURES WHATSOEVER, I have absoletely no ill feelings or wishes toward any of my family or my friends or ANY MORMON, ANIT MORMON/JOSEPH SMITH, CHRISTIAN, ANYONE PERIOD.
However, when I cite scripture and expound on it, you and others overlook and ignore much of what is written and make assumptions about ME. Let me ask a question: do you think that the Jewish church and it’s members thought that Christ and the Apostles were bitter former/anti jews that disdained the church and its member???!!!! especially when he said this: (i was gong to insert Chirst’s words here, but it will be assumed that i don’t believe it and it will also be ignored and/or make you more angry, so i’ll skip this portion which would have reminded your mind how judgmental and “intolerant” Christ and his apostles were concerning the church of their time)
“You come across not as someone concerned about the salvation of sinners but as a bitter anti-Mormon who disdains the LDS church and its members. Are you one of the pedophiles, murderers or rapists that Jesus will release from prison or are you just another hypocrite pointing out the faults of others while ignoring their own? If a hypocrite is worse than a murderous child rapist then you’re in just as much trouble as you claim every Latter-day Saint is in.”
What if I am a rapist, pedophile, or murderer, hyporcrite or all of them? The only question that arises, is what made you so ANGRY enough to feel justified to say such a thing? And not only that, have I claimed that i’m “ignoring” my own “faults”:) another assumption. NEVER DID I SAY THAT ANYONE WAS IN “TROUBLE” OR WOULD WREAK THE HAVOC OF A VENGEFUL GOD. Nor did I implicate that even those “mormons” that i’m supposedly “intolerant” of are in trouble! Since a hyporcrite is not better or worse than anyone, nor a murderous child rapist better or worse than anyone—nobody is in trouble. also, can you please give me the exact quotation that would lead you to write that i “claim every latterday saint is in (trouble).”??? I DON’T THINK ANY PERSON IN THIS WORLD IS IN TROUBLE…AND UNLESS LDS ARENE’T PEOPLE, THEY WOULD FALL UNDER THAT “ANY PERSON” CATEGORY.
The gospel of Christ invites people to be at peace and to depend on themselves for that peace. What prevents people from being at peace is the hypocrisy that the precepts of men mingled with scripture creates for all those under it’s spell. “know ye not that the kingdom of god is within you…and that the Father dwelleth not in temples made with hands.” Christ mission and his apostles was to help all people to recognize the hypocrisy of any institution claiming to have authority over anyone—HE AND HIS APOSTLES CHALLENGED THEIR ALLEGED AUTHORITY. And when they did, they received the exact same response that you have given me.
you don’t really need to wonder why Christ taught in parables now do ya? So, what a waste to explain all this when you could have addressed the vast amount of scriptures in the post that I wrote. Probablly about 80% was either scripture or contextual explanation of said scriptures. you did not address those matters.
Anyway, according to “scripture” GOD IS THE MOST INTOLERANT OF ALL, so I guess I will be seeing him in hell.
why do people care about HOW anyone “comes across” or the “tone” of anything. Shouldn’t the question be “does what he write have any validity or truth to it?” IF YOU DON’T GIVE AN HONEST AND REASONALBE RESPONSE TO THE CONTENT OF WHAT’S WRITTEN IN THE POST, WHAT POINT IS THERE TO RESPOND? misconstruing the tone and context of a post to give you value derived from your self perception of “persecution-from-those-who-are intolerant-against-us-chosen-people” indicates that the well within is very dry. I can only hope that you realize that you are EQUAL to your Father and Christ and they do not want to be worshipped in the way that you’ve been taught—and i f you don’t realize it, it doesn’t matter! “come buy milk and honey WITHOUT MONEY AND WITHOUT PRICE”, but make sure you give your leaders 10 percent!!!!
written language sucks don’t it. we could have this exact conversation at a bar (or at Cafe Rio) and you would see how accepting i am of all people and you’d witness my tone in which i speak and then you’d realize all your assumptions of me were completely false…it’s okay, i don’t have the spirit of discernment either.
From a very intolerant person that ironically is very tolerant, but can’t tolerate intollerance of the intollerant:) please exuse me while I check the mirror, I have a beam in my eye–if you can, can you please come over and help me remove it, it would be greatly appreciated:)
what is life without a bit of sattire— excuse me while i go sin.
Hu,
You say you don’t condemn “Mormon, Christians, and Muslims, or any other religion” but you describe them all as “think[ing] that only their definition of good will survive the second coming.” I know Muslims don’t believe in the second coming of Christ but Latter-day Saints (who are Christians) don’t believe that only Latter-day Saints will be saved. The scriptures declare that anyone with a pure heart will be spared. That will include Muslims, Christians, Jews and “heathens.” You will like to comment on me being literal about Muslims and the second coming of Christ but I can only go off of the broad sweeping comments you choose to type.
“What made you so ANGRY enough to feel justified to say such a thing?”
As far as anger goes didn’t you say “why do people care about HOW anyone ‘comes across’ or the ‘tone’ of anything?” Apparently you don’t think it really matters if I am angry or not but then again I can only go off what you write. Considering all that why would you be offended if I ask you if you are a murderous child rapist or an equally vile hypocrite? Isn’t all sin the same? You didn’t have a problem saying, “May all like minded people as Jonathon continue to exalt themselves.” At least I asked and didn’t assume.
It will be unproductive to go point to point with you on scripture. You can assume I am unable but there are more than 2000 pages of scripture (that I recognize) and it’s easy, though dishonest, to pick or ignore passages that support or don’t support your OPINION.
I have a personal witness that President Monson is the prophet just like you obviously have a personal witness that Christopher is whatever you think he is. You can no more argue against my witness then I can against yours. You could show me a handwritten confession that Emma Smith and some of her relief society friends wrote the Book of Commandments and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference to me.
Everything you have typed and will type is opinion and always will be. It’s your interpretation of scripture or the personal “truth” that you extracted from scripture. You have no more authority than I do to interpret scripture for others. The only binding thing is the Holy Spirit and what he tells us is right or true.
By the way, your clever satirical ways almost won me over. Add a little more condescension, sarcasm and more of that tough love and maybe you can start your own religion.
here we go again:)
ok, i referred to “gun loving” people of those faiths who actually do believe that only those of their own faith will be spared the wrath of god—that certainly is not a broad sweeping comment; in fact it’s precisely identifying.
that’s right, i did ask why people care about the tone, and because that’s what you focused on in your first reply i truly wanted to know what made you angry about what i posted enough to ask what you did? because once again, you will not discuss any scripture or history (THE CONTENT OF THE LETTER) and what you cared to focus on was my tone of bitterness that the Lord shares when speaking through isaiah and jeremiah.
“Apparently you don’t think it really matters if I am angry or not but then again I can only go off what you write.” that’s precisely the point, you don’t go off what i write—you go off on ‘how it sounds’.
anyway, i definitely wasn’t offended by you saying such and i do not have any ill feeling toward you… i just smiled—i just responded by asking you why would it matter if i was a child murderer rapist, since you were the one inferring such?
“…and it’s easy, though dishonest, to pick or ignore passages that support or don’t support your OPINION.”
well, since, as you say, there is 2000+ pages of scripture i don’t have a choice but to pick and choose. and since i would obviously share those that would support my “OPINION” the onus would be on you to share those scripts that in honesty and sincerity you believe deconstruct my opinion. i do not fear if you do such a thing but have been asking you to do that. BUT, IT WOULD SURE BE NICE IF YOU AT LEAST WOULD RESPOND TO ANY SCRIPTURE, QUOTE ANY SCRIPTURE, CITE ANY SCRIPTURE AND GIVE YOUR EXPLANATION RATHER THAN PICK TO IGNORE ALL THE ONES I’VE CITED AND MAKE FALSE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT ME INSTEAD—”LET US REASON TOGETHER”:) i truly mean that but i don’t think you believe me.
i have no doubt that you have a PERSONAL witness that president monson is a prophet, or you obviously wouldn’t be writing the things that you are and bearing testimony. however, was it not you that assumed and concluded in your first reply that i didn’t believe in the book of mormon and the sealed portion therefore i couldn’t possibly believe that christopher is the translator of the latter. puts me in a quandry.
“You have no more authority than I do to interpret scripture for others. The only binding thing is the Holy Spirit and what he tells us is right or true.”
what does this mean? yes,me and you have the same “authority,” BUT DO OTHERS HAVE AUTHORITY OVER US TO DEFINE SAID SCRIPTURE and to extract truth therefrom on our behalf? and what is the Holy Spirit and is it really a He and how is it that “he” tells us what is right or true? (more questions that will remain unanswered)
i have not argued against your witness— i’ve merely cited scriptures and attempted to explain them according to my understanding and i’ve invited you to do the same but you refuse to because you’re angry. another point that you perfectly portray is this: you could be shown a “written confession” and it wouldn’t make a difference. (but i don’t know where you get the idea that emma and her rs friends wrote the book of commandments).
“By the way, your clever satirical ways almost won me over.”
NO, they did not almost win you over, so why would you say that?
“…Add a little more condescension, sarcasm and more of that tough love and maybe you can start your own religion.”
no one can be no more condescending, sarcastic, and filled with tough love than a hippie i recall that lived 2000 yrs ago that said some things to a really powerful church, it’s leaders, and it’s members, such as:
Matt 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matt 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Matt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matt 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matt 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Matt 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Matt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matt 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matt 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city.
but the thing about this hippie, he didn’t start any religion or any church—HIS DISCIPLES AND THEIR FOLLOWERS DID; and i just might too because i’m short on cash.
anyway, “just my opinion” for the last time on this site to spare all those from hearing the boring dissecting of assumptions made about me in attempt to bring it back to the subject matter—THE SEALED PORTION. as moroni said to joseph, the book of mormon and bible contains the fullness of the gospel—god forbid if anyone actually wants to comment on what’s contained in those books.
and yes, i really do mean it when i invite you over to pull the beam out of my eye but that’s only if promise not to get angry, lest you inadvertently shove the beam further into mine eye and it gets permanently stuck:) but as the pharisees, saducees, and scribes could not sit at meat with the same sinners that Christ was with, i don’t think that you’d be comfortable around this sinner—no matter how good of a cook i am. invite is always open.
man, the sun is so hot today….but i guess that’s just my opinion.
remember, 2 more hours till sabbath is over…
Hu,
You consistantly complain about assumptions and keep making them yourself. You call yourself a sinner not to illustrate what we all are but to imply that those you argue against aren’t humble enough to admit the same. I am a sinner too, big woopty do.
The only thing I can figure out from what you type is you hate the LDS church and want its members to stop paying tithing. I guess when it talks about tithing in the scriptures those parts were made up. Since you beleive that and I don’t it’s impossible to argue scripture with you. If I use a verse you will say “that one was made up.” For people to have a successful conversation they have to agree on ground rules. If a person doesn’t believe in God it does no good to argue about the nature of God or His commandmants. Same thing applies for any principle.
You believe in Christopher, I don’t. No amount of arguing is going to make either one of us budge.
The sun is always hot even when we don’t feel it but your kind only believes it’s hot if he’s/she’s sweating buckets.
Enjoy your sinning while you can.
part 2 of my last response hahaha (need something to pass the time)
Christ taught the Jews according to their language and their understanding. Christ obvioulsy understood that all people fell short of the glory of god—they’re all sinners. BUT, according to the leaders and memebers of the jewish syngogues a “sinner” was anyone who did not strictly adhere to the ordinances of the temple and the strict synagogue (church) codes. they truly believed that anyone that strictly adhered to these practices was considered “righteous”. albeit even the pharisees and scribes were “humble enough” to understood that even they themselves were also “sinners”, HOWEVER, NOT IN THE SAME CATEGORY THAT REQUIRED JUDGMENT FROM THE CHURCH—this is the context that the pharisee/leaders of the synagogue used the word “sinner” when asking question to or about Christ. they maintained their self-entitled perception of “righteous” by thinking that their sins were less than those whom they considered to be “omitting the weightier matters of the law”—what upheld their entitlement was their constant comparison to those sinners that sinned in ways that would prevent the latter from being called “righteous sinners:)” ; the resulting contrast convinced them (leaders and followers of said leaders) that they were “whole” because they didn’t believe they were “leaving anything undone.” that is why Christ said:
“They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (yup, that’s actually really sarcastic from the man who is the “savior” or the world).
also,
“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”
Christ said these things after ” scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinner.”
all publicans were excommunicated–”put out of the synagogue” for their practices and those that sat at meat with them were considered sinners not only because these other sinners associated with those who were excommunicated but they were also considered to be “sinners of the worst kind”; among these sinners were many woman—known as harlots or prostitutes or whatever name you want to call them by. these same “call girls” serviced the needs of the same pharisees that exclaimed “how is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?” it wasn’t okay to eat with them, put it was ok to pay them an honest wage for their services! i’m sure there was a question in the interview process for those who were to become high priests: “are you honest in all your dealings with your prostitutes.”
but what infuriated the pharisees the most was that this jesus wasn’t calling these horrible sinners to repentance—he would eat with them, laugh with them, drink (YES, DRINK) with them.
so, someone can only learn in their language. and someone will only listen to another that speaks that same language and “agrees” with their ill understanding of religious concepts. hence the reason Christ had to appease the egocentric jewish leadership by using THEIR understanding and belief of what a sinner was. and also notice that all these people– pharisees, scribes, and sinners– were in the SAME vicinity of Christ, or “in the same room” if you will, they had equal access regardless of who they were and what they were doing. the pharisees loved “their messiah” as much as those “sinners” loved “their savior”.
so, in this context i used the word sinner. did i assume that you didn’t think that you weren’t “humble enough” to consider yourself a sinner—ABSOLUTELY NOT. if i believe in Christ how could i believe that. did i assume that you don’t think you have matters to “repent” of in your life, according to your understanding of repentance? ABSOLUTELY NOT. did i assume that you don’t have a love and adoration for the man called Jesus more or less than i do—ABSOLUTELY NOT. did i assume that you were telling me to remove the mote from my eye while you claimed you had no beam in yours—ABSOLUTELY NOT. but i do believe your words to me were:”Are you one of the pedophiles, murderers or rapists that Jesus will release from prison or are you just another hypocrite pointing out the faults of others while ignoring their own.” truly amazing isn’t it! I INVITED YOU TO HELP ME PULL OUT THE BEAM THAT I ADMITTEDLY HAVE IN MY EYE…”and ye would not”:)
BUT, LET US BOTH ASSUME THAT I ACTUALLY USED THAT TERM “SINNER” IN PERFECT CONTEXT AND MEANING(jewish & biblical sense). in other words i am not a member of the lds church—you are. i associate with others who are also former members of the church—including homosexuals, those who love to get a buzz, have sex, drink, swear, speak against “the lords annointed,” and who are guilty for “thought crimes” such as believing in doctrine differently than the apostles and byu scholars (scribes)—all these things of which a member in “good standing” do not all inclusively do. NOW, here is my one and only assumption of all my posts: I HAVE ASSUMED THAT YOU ARE A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING.
now if you are a “latter day saint” then let us be honest. you truly believe that there are big sins and little sins—if you don’t the lds church sure does; that is why there is the sacrament for some, different degrees of dis-fellowshipping for many, and excommunication for others. you personally understand that though you may have some personal sins to deal with OR EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT A “MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING”, that you will always be square with god and are not in danger of hell fire because you believe 1) that the LDS church is the one and only true church, 2) that joseph smith is a prophet, 3) that the holy scriptures are true, 4) that jesus is the christ, 5) that president monson is the lords mouthpiece, 6) that the other 14 men are the lords true representatives on the earth, 7) that the lord would not allow “his servants” to lead “his sheep” away, and last but not least
that you will always be part of the Lords chosen people.
anyway,
i’m waiting for you to come over to enjoy my sinning with me:), but you’d transform yourself from a small sinner to a real sinner if you associated with this excommunicated member of your church, even this “anti mormon”. yes, it is such a big deal or else the church wouldn’t be asking you in your temple recommend interview if you associate or are affiliated with such groups or people:)
i do not think i am closer to god now or will be closer to god than you in the hereafter–WHY, because “the kingdom of GOD is WITHING YOU.” however, i know for a fact that you truly believe that you are more apt and qualified to enter into the celestial kingdom and receive your exaltation and that jesus is much more pleased with you than i. why do i know this: BECAUSE EVERY TALK LAST GENERAL CONFERENCE GIVEN BY THE APOSTLES ATTEST TO IT. and how else do i also know this: because i have been where you are at, but with much more conviction–at least enough to respond to the CONTENT of an honest inquiry without “trying to figure out” anything beyond the surface of the words.
you said: “The only thing I can figure out from what you type is you hate the LDS church and want its members to stop paying tithing.”— i do not hate ANYONE, so your figuring was wrong once again–but as for the tithing thing:
“and Jesus began to teach the people that they should not support the church and its wickedness by the payment of tithes and offerings, but that they should give that which they could afford to the poor and those who have less than they do.
“and Jesus condemned the rich and also the leaders of the church for the luxurious lifestyles that they lived, having received these things because of that which the people gave unto the church.”
—–
if you truly want to have a honest discussion on tithing then please begin…here’s a starting point if you want.(i’m inviting YOU to establish the ground to start on and i will come to it)
first: what is the origin of tithing in the O.T
second: what law did it replace
third: and what law did Christ replace the O.T tithing with
fourth: where in the bom is tithing taught and explain the context (same with NT)
fifth: what is the origin of tithing in the “latter days”
sixth: what law did tithing replace in the latter days”
..and lastly but not least, where does CHRIST even TALK OR MENTION TITHING in the bible or book of mormon wherein he FULFILLS THE OLD LAW. don’t look to hard–he doesn’t mention it as part of HIS gospel, aka “the words of plainness.” in fact, tithing allows the rich to feel justified in hoarding their riches, and makes the poor even poorer. WOULD CHRIST INSTITUTE A LAW THAT GRINDS UPON THE FACES OF THE POOR?
TITHING IS A “COMMANDMENT” THAT MAINTAINS INEQUALITY AMONG THE PEOPLE WHERE THE LORDS SAYS “THERE SHOULD BE NO POOR AMONG YOU” AND “IT IS NOT GIVEN THAT ONE MAN POSSESETH MORE THAN ANOTHER.” again, “the jews despised the words of plainness” and so did the ‘latter day saints’ which is why the Lord allowed Joseph to establish the LOWER LAW of Tithing that replaced the law of consecration and the united order. (see
D&C 119 and 104…it took only 4 short years for the saints to reject the fullness of the gospel)
so, brother jonathon—you speak of dishonesty of only picking and choosing scripture to support my “opinion”. however, you have NEVER ANSWERED ANY QUESTIONS EVER POSED TO YOU , no matter how trivial or honest the questions were and still are; nor have you provided a single instance of scripture. once again what you think as me “complaining about assumptions” is merely undertaking the task to clear up your assumptions in that i have made ANY (aside from the assumption that you were a “member in good standing”), and also in patience trying to provide you and the reader a very clear picture of how difficult it was for those in the time of Christ who loved old wine to accept new wine and understand his “words of plainness”— but no one can get drunk from drinking new wine, so who would want it?!
your assertion that if you quoted scripture i would say “that was made up” is unfounded. you still have not provided the D%C scripture (OR ANY) that supports your statement that the doctrine of calling and election has to do with “seeing the things that ether talked about.” why don’t you give me the opportunity to prove your assumptions about me correct?
exactly the point: the sun is always hot and though i say it is hot—THAT’S ONLY MY OPINION, BUT THAT OPINION HAPPENED TO COINCIDE WITH THE TRUTH THAT THE SUN IS ALWAYS HOT… and apparently i was sweating buckets that day because my words were “man, the sun is so hot today.”:)
(”how great is the condescension of our God”…now i’m beginning to think that this saying is about Christ and the complaints from those who felt his words were so condescending:)
I Peter 3:15,1— (now, ASSUMING YOU BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE)
“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
“Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.”
there has been only one person in this “conversation” who has attempted to speak of Christ, his life, his Gospel, his prophets, and His Father’s Work or has sought to define any of these things; and there is only one who is echoing the invitation of the Lord: “come…let us reason together.”
may everyone understand that there is no such thing as “your kinds” and my “kinds” but that we are all equal in the eyes of Our Parents who allow the sun to shine freely upon the “righteous” and the “wicked”. by saying this the Lord reassures us that no one is rewarded for their religious rites/works/ordinances any more than those who do not those things–or in other words God is no respecter of persons. all children of Heavenly Parents have the capacity to become as They are, based on the virtue ALONE that we are their children.
and to bring it full circle BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THE SEALED PORTION:
“Behold at that time shall the very Eternal Father and all of the Eternal Mothers who have created the spirits of all men, come down upon the earth and receive Their children upon Their breast, and talk with them, and coddle them, and laugh with them, and play with them.
“And we shall see our Eternal Parents as They truly are. As They smile upon us and receive us into Their arms, where we shall weep, because we have missed Them for these many years of our preparation to come home to Them once again.
“Yea, great and glorious shall be the day, when at last, we are all once again reunited to the ONLY family that we have ever been a part of—the Eternal Family of God.”
Hu,
Tithing: you quote something that is not in the standard works so it’s meaningless to me. Anyway, tithing mentioned in scripture: Genesis 14:18-20, Leviticus 27: 30-34, Deuteronomy. 14: 22, 28 Chronicles 31: 5 Malachi 3: 8-11, 3 Nephi 24: 8-11, Hebrews 7: 1-2, 92 D&C 64: 23, D&C 85: 3. As far as answering the questions I’m not interested in hammering the details of tithing out with you. Answers won’t change your mind. Chalk it up to whatever you want but it’s a waste of time. The Bible is not complete and the whys and wherefores don’t have anything to do with the spiritual witness I have received that paying tithing is the right thing to do.
Calling and Election Sured:
2 Peter 1: 4-11, D&C 131: 5, Exodus 19: 5-6, 2 Nephi 31: 19-20
D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.
When the Brother of Jared saw all things (that he wrote and sealed) it was after the Lord sealed him His. If a person receives the second comforter (Jesus Christ) he will show them the things Jared saw. They, like Jared, will be commanded to seal that experience until a time the Lord dictates that it be shared with others. Is that scripture? Yes. But like tithing I am not going to guide you around the standard works and conference talks to try and convince you.
Any sin will keep you from God “for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.” If we don’t repent of sin here we will repent of sin in the next phase of life because everyone has to be cleansed to stand before God at Judgment Day. That is what “every knee will bow and every tongue confess” means. God will forgive anyone that will repent, even rapists and pedophiles but to be forgiven you have to repent. And yes, there are different degrees of sin or there wouldn’t be different degrees of glory. It says so in the scriptures.
Jesus dined and drank (there was no refrigeration in those days so obviously the wine got a little ripe) with sinners. That wasn’t hard to do though because everyone was a sinner then as they are now, but some of those were worse than others. Though Christ knew what an old grape tasted like it NEVER says or even implies anywhere in the scriptures, like you are implying, that he was a recreational drunk or kept company with the same. Jesus didn’t condone sinning or he wouldn’t have bothered to invite the infirm to repent. He told one woman, “Go and sin no more.” If it was okay that she was an adulteress he would have just told her to go. He also said, “If ye love me keep my commandments” not, “if ye love me that is enough.”
Jesus was sarcastic but never condescending. He never did it with a smile on his face because he didn’t do it to be clever or funny. Sometimes words that sting are the only things that penetrate hard hearts. It was his final attempt to offer them a chance at salvation. If I could picture you delivering your sarcasm the way the Lord did I might have been more receptive to listening to ALL THESE THINGS I HAVE ALREADY BEEN BOMBARDED WITH FOR DECADES but it would have ultimately been a waste of time as I’m confident that, like Christopher, you don’t have any message that will be accompanied by the comforter.
Yes, I am a member in good standing but I do not believe that is my guaranteed ticket back to God. Having the right beliefs isn’t enough and I think it’s disingenuous to try to convince others that most members of the LDS church are stupid or naïve enough to think so. If we lack charity we will never live with God. It says something like that in the scriptures, “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.” And although Joseph Smith echoed that by saying, “Charity covereth a multitude of sins”, he never said, “Charity covereth all sins.” I think it’s safe to say a kind gentle person lacking ordinances in this life will fair better than an endowed member of the LDS church that is bitter and unkind throughout mortality.
You pretend to know where I’m at in life and think that somehow your vast experience with and tolerance for drugs, homosexuality and any other class of sin cloaks you with the “wisdom” that can liberate me from the shackles of obedience. You’re not novel. Your kind have been in and out of my life as long as I can remember. I’ve even had the “specialty sinners” as friends. That’s not a virtue. Every one of them tried to turn me from the dictates of my conscience though I was the good tolerant buddy you think I should be now. Their efforts, despite my polite objections, let me know that they didn’t care about me as much as I cared about them. I guess misery loves company. Anyway, God doesn’t want us to needlessly kill a snake but he also doesn’t require us to pick it up and put it in our pocket. Jesus didn’t even bother spending time with people that tried to destroy him. If those publicans and sinners weren’t receptive to his message or they had tried to thwart him he wouldn’t have kept their company. How do I know? Because he tried hanging out with the Jews and even reading a few verses with them but when they shunned him and tried to kill him he left.
So having said that, I’m not really in the mood to eat dinner with you. I lack charity and more so patience. That’s probably why, despite having participated in all the ordinances available to me, I might never have my calling and election sured.
Julie says:
I have asked many who accuse Christopher of being a “deceiver, a charlatan”, etc., why the church, IF THEY REALLY BELIEVED THAT (or actually cared about their members other than the income they provide), why they don’t send out a letter to all the UT or SL valley wards WARNING members about that “deceiver”. No one can give me an answer better than the only one that makes sense— because they don’t want to alert their members that The Sealed Portion could possibly have been translated.
And then.. earlier in this great post.. Julie said:
Julie says: if Christopher is a deceiver why hasn’t the 1st Pres. sent out a bulletin on it?
Let me quote what I said before.. as it still applies:
Richard replies: “Why would a world wide Church put out a bulletin on some guy who claims he is the next true prophet of God? There are so many out there that are doing that. Chris is not a threat. Those who have been deceived are on their own. There will be many who are deceived but that is what free agency is all about. Even if you could give Chris 5000 people who believed, he would still not be a threat, but he has how many followers on his “marvelousworkandawonder” group; maybe 100?”
Well.. actually.. last time I checked.. it is not even 100.
There is no threat here.
And to think… now Christopher signs his name:
With the same love he had,
The “one who bears his name.”
Shaking my head.
Julie says: “Richard”, (AKA J.J. Dewey)
“Inspirational, Spiritual & Metaphysical Books by J J Dewey
image of Immortal 1 MP3 CD by JJ Dewey The Immortal (Book 1) Is John, the Apostle, the Beloved Of Christ, and author of the biblical book of Revelations …
www.jjwritings.com/books/ - Cached - Similar -
More results from www.jjwritings.com »”
JJ, when you’re lying about who you are, what you believe and what your real agenda is here—should we expect you to speak the truth about anyone or anything else?
Hey Jules,
That’s some whacky stuff. Reincarnation? Where will all the trillions of flies go? I guess it never occured to him that as one (of billions) star differs from another in glory so are the many many worlds that will need all those flies. Anyway, I think JJ and Christopher are wacky and both in their own way looked past the mark or missed it all together. I still love you though no matter what you believe. I don’t doubt your sincerity. It’s a nice quality.
so, my one assumption about you was true: that you are a member in good standing…unlike ALL the assumptions that you have made toward me in ALL your posts (including the last one), which are false:)
after reading your posts i have to look back on what i wrote because i think you are responding to someone elses. i say this in all seriousness because of the same type of assumptions…
“like you are implying, that he was a recreational drunk or kept company with the same”
can you in all seriousness believe such a thing, that i implied that Christ was a recreation drunk? but yes, he kept company with those who drank much, but that doesn’t sit well with you?!?! nor did it sit well to the pharisees.
“You pretend to know where I’m at in life and think that somehow your vast experience with and tolerance for drugs, homosexuality and any other class of sin cloaks you with the “wisdom” that can liberate me from the shackles of obedience.”
so cleverly worded but drastically untrue—you completely missed the truth to that “parable”: “by seeing they do not see, hearing they do not hear”. where have i pretended to know “where you’re at in life” and what the hell does “where i’m at in life” mean anyway? because i asked you to be honest with what you really think and especially with what your LEADERS think about YOURSELVES–which all things i said were true and cannot be denied (and weren’t denied, whadyaknow)
and from all my posts, the main theme you get is that i’m trying to “liberate you from the shackles of obedience?” where in my posts have i sincerely attempted to have you be “disobedient” or have i tried to personally sway you in these things you’re referring to? and as for “i’m waiting for you to come over to enjoy my sinning with me:)”, it was purely a joke. god forbid humor!
again, instead of taking the time to substantiate your understanding of certain truths, you continue to make talk about me and what you think i am, and what you think i mean, and erroneously believe that i’m shallow to the point that all i care about is “getting you buzzed and drunk.” that’s what you want readers to think and that’s what you want to believe yourself. you don’t want to “hammer this out” not because your deceptive “answers” (which i will prove they are) won’t change my mind, but because you don’t want to compare your reasoning to the truth of common sense and allow all those who saunter upon this to see it. (and you just might respond to this sentence and say: i don’t care that other’s see this, etc, etc, etc.)
“Jesus was sarcastic but never condescending”— he was both! why do you think his truth is compared to a TWO edge sword. do you really think that the pharisees thought that Christ was just being sarcastic? of course not. they were OFFENDED because what he said was condescending to THEM, which would have been sarcastic to those who were not offended.
as for calling and election: amazing how those words are only in ONE of those scriptures you list!!! but lets look at those (for the sake of our readers of course)
D$C 131:5
“The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s KNOWING that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.” (try explaining what that means without running into the same old rhetoric used by byu scholars (scribes) and latter day pharisees)
did the brother of jared receive his second annointing ordinances in a temple, did the Lord lay his hands upon his head and pronounce upon him his exaltation? does this verse refer to “seeing what ether talks about?” NOPE,NOPE,NOPE. but because Mahonri discovered that the Lord has a body of flesh and bone HE WAS REDEEMED FROM THE FALL! and us KNOWING THE EXACT SAME THING (NOT SEEING THE THINGS THAT ETHER TALKS ABOUT), WE TOO ARE REDEEMED FROM THE FALL.
Exodus 19:5-6
“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”
and how does this relate IN ANY WAY to the LDS understanding of “calling and election”? well, there are different understandings in the LDS community of what this “doctrine” entails—so maybe that’s where we should begin—what version of LDS undertanding are you talking about? again though, this verse, having nothing to do with “seeing what ether talks about.”
2 peter 1:4-11 is the passage that actually has the words “calling and election sure”—
“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the a
everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Chris.”
interestingly enough, a few versus later it states:
For we have not followed cunningly DEVISED FABLES, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; where unto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts”
what is that more sure word of prophecy? is this the same that D$C 131 talks about? perhaps it is, maybe that’s why Joseph so VAGUELY answered the question because no one knew what it was referring to…and whadya know… still no one knows but they have attribute their OWN vain and foolish imaginations to what they think Joseph, Peter, and Paul meant.
“As far as answering the questions I’m not interested in hammering the details of tithing out with you.”
yup, you wouldn’t want to. you shared the OLD LAW (OLD WINE) in the OLD TESTAMENT, which even 3 nephi 24: 8-11 and Hebrews 7: 1-2 refers to. the D$C versus refer to THE LAW OF CONSECRATION, “which he has given, that he may tithe his people,” “and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.”
the context of the word tithing and the word tithe in these sections does not correlate with the latter day “interpretation” of 1/10 of someone’s income—not even does the practice of paying tithing today even come close to what the Lord DEFINED in section 119… but we can pretend can’t we? but all these versus point to the fact that Christ message is so difficult for those who are steeped in man’s religion…his message is received the same. After Christ left (the old and new world), all the “believers” had “all things in common, having neither poor or rich among them.” but specifically this epistle was written to the Hebrews expaining to them that the CARNAL LAW WHICH INCLUDED “TITHING” HAS BEEN CHANGED, but they reverted back (still wanted to cling onto) to the law of tithing and other such ordinances; thus the explanation from Paul that began by talking about abraham paying his tithes to the “prince of salem”:
“…have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the LAW…
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” I believe there was a priest called after the “order of melchisidec” whose name was Jesus Christ, WHO FILLFILLED THAT LAW and replaced it with:
“…but ye shall offer up to me a broken heart and a contrite spirit.”
the kingdoms of glories are not a result of “baby bear, mama bear, and papa bear” sins; there are three types of people: those who like to serve others, those who like to serve themselves, and those who like to be served by others in all things. Those who are telestial are those who we call “selfish”. It is their desire of happiness to be served by others FOR ETERNITY. Thus, if you correlate the “sins” described in section 76 committed by those who are telestial—you will notice that they are ALL A RESULT OF SELFISHNESS. Apply that same reasoning to the other kingdoms and it makes perfect sense as well. The terrestrial ‘sins” correspond to complaceny or focusing on ones self, in those who were not AS VALIANT in their testimony of Christ, and those who allowed themselves to be deceived by the subtle craftiness of man which gave them justification to continue in their carnal security and to not think they actually were responsible for the welfare of their neighbor. Those who are celestial focused upon serving the “least among them.” So, the actions in this life PROVE WHO WE ALREADY HAVE BECOME PRIOR TO MORTALITY; and the “judgment” is simply a confirmation of what we will come to know about ourselves. We came here to prove that we either are selfish, neither selfish nor serving, or serving individuals. And nothing is wrong with any desires of these individuals. In the Mansions provided by our Father, everyone will be happy and have all their needs met to ensure ETERNAL HAPPINESS. do you really think a perfect Father is going to send his child to a place where he is continually going to think within himself:”oh, i just wish daddy was closer to me, i’m not happy because my daddy punished me for partaking of the fruit of the tree that HE PLANTED.”
“Jesus didn’t even bother spending time with people that tried to destroy him. If those publicans and sinners weren’t receptive to his message or they had tried to thwart him he wouldn’t have kept their company. How do I know? Because he tried hanging out with the Jews and even reading a few verses with them but when they shunned him and tried to kill him he left.”
i would have to agree…especially that it was the most predominant religion of his time, whose members and leaders considered themselves to be the “Lord’s chosen” awaiting for THEIR first advent of their Messiah (though it would be the second time)— that sought to kill him.
should you delve in a little more regarding who Christ dined with, and who he kept company with (a little study outside the scriptures) than you would realize that him not always “calling sinners to repentance” as readily as the jews did infuriated the Pharisee, Saducee’s, and Scribes. as for my previous statement, it was an incomplete thought and i will render it this way: “but what infuriated the pharisees the most was that this jesus wasn’t calling these horrible sinners to repentance AS THEY WOULD HAVE DONE.” as for the women taken in adultery: he SPECIFICALLY TOLD HER to go her way and sin no more—why? because “doing unto others as you would have them do unto you” is THE LAW OF THE GOSPEL, and upon this law hangeth all others. the woman caught in adultery happened to be his future wife! so it was a personal plea from her future husband to “do unto me as i would do unto you”–but she knew it not at the time. her following His counsel would obviously bring her the greatest peace in her life.
“So having said that, I’m not really in the mood to eat dinner with you. I lack charity and more so patience. That’s probably why, despite having participated in all the ordinances available to me, I might never have my calling and election sured.” i understand.
“thou shalt love the lord thy god with all thine heart, might, mind, and strength…and the second in like unto it: thou shalt love thy neighbor AS THYSELF” in otherwords, thou shalt love all others as you love YOURSELF–WHO IS GOD! start loving GOD jonathon, you don’t seem happy.
“MY YOKE IS EASY AND BY BURDEN IS LIGHT…COME BY MILK AND HONEY WITHOUT MONEY AND WITHOUT PRICE”.
lighten up, and i don’t mean “go have a drink or get buzzed.”
(ironically, i have never done those things:)
you already have your calling and election made sure and you don’t even know it!
“Your kind have been in and out of my life as long as I can remember.”
you still believe in “kinds?” sad
anyway, much respect from an eternal sibling,
adding my witness hu
PS: you sum it up PERFECTLY
“I think it’s safe to say a kind gentle person lacking ordinances in this life will fair better than an endowed member of the LDS church that is bitter and unkind throughout mortality.”
“will fair better”— are those keys words for something that you actually don’t want to define?
by saying the above, how are you not then saying that ordinances are not necessary for salvation????!!!! please explain if you care to.
PSPS: it would be disingenous to try to convince yourself and others that if you just forsook all that you believed to be true, that you would not feel that your exaltation would be jeopardized! “having the right beliefs isn’t enough”—- no “beliefs” matter especially when “all will bow the knee” and have the veil “rent in twain.”
Hu,
“will fair better”— are those keys words for something that you actually don’t want to define? by saying the above, how are you not then saying that ordinances are not necessary for salvation????!!!! please explain if you care to.”
Of course the ordinances are necessary. Everyone will have to have ordinance work. If you were a heathen in this life, but a kind loving heathen, and you die without the gospel but accept it when it is offered to you in the spirit world you will have your ordinances performed for you vicariously and have a place in the Celestial kingdom. Same goes for any honest Jew, Muslim, Hindi, Buhhdist, atheist, etc. But if they do not accept Jesus Christ any vicarious work done on their behalf won’t take effect.
On the other hand an endowed person that was unkind, bitter, dishonest etc. will be turned away, “I never knew you.” Why is that such a shock and why would any Latter-day Saint think it would be otherwise?
I’m surprised with all the common sense you think people should be using that you couldn’t extrapolate that for yourself.
Why do you care about assumptions or what I think you are? If according to you everyone fairs the same in this world, what does it matter?
What’s your take on any of God’s monetary laws (consecration, tithing, etc.)? Do you take care of the poor? How much do you give? All of your income apart from what keeps you afloat? Or does it not really matter because everyone fairs the same in this life?
Dearest Jonathan, how about googling “Address to Believers” by David Whitmer who was one of the original 3 witnesses.
It is his testimony. You won’t have to read through the entire thing to get the gist.
I think you’ll find it quite interesting.
J. XO
Jules,
Yeah, I read that and wasn’t compelled. My Priesthood lineage comes through those that Whitmer claims had no authority. This contradicts the witnesses I have been blessed with when exercising the priesthood. I still love you though. I honestly do.
Julie said:
JJ, when you’re lying about who you are, what you believe and what your real agenda is here—should we expect you to speak the truth about anyone or anything else?
Richard says:
Julie.. you made an assumption that once again.. is dead wrong. I would not quit your day job to become a prophet. I am not JJ Dewey. I do not have any followers.. I am not a teacher in any group on the internet. I am however a Sunday School teacher for children who are 12 & 13 years old. So I am speaking the truth.
Even when you are wrong.. you won’t admit it. This is the 2nd time you have accused me of being someone I am not. And somehow in your mind, you feel that if you find out that I am someone else.. that it negates what I have said. But alas.. I am me and not anyone else.
Any person who has studied the Church knows that when David Whitmer wrote his pamphlet “Address to Believers”.. he made claims that he could not support and no one could refute because he knew that those who could call his story a fable were all dead. It was of David’s opinion that Joseph was a fallen prophet and he was doing everything in HIS power to get people to follow that line of thinking. So when someone has an agenda as powerful as that.. you must take what is being said with a grain of salt and be able to verify and cross reference his tales. So honestly.. pointing someone to the writings of David Whitmer in no way claims you a victory or proves your point… but nice try passing it off to another “reliable” source.
Here is your same exact post lifted from thesealedportionyahoodgroups site #3568 with your REAL name attached. One has only to compare it to post #55 from this site.
Doesn’t take a “prophet, seer or revelator” to figure that out!
“I was sent this quote made by Chris:
“There is no such thing as a NDE.
“One is either dead or alive.
“When the human essence leaves the human body, it does not record any
experiences. It only records when in the body. Therefore, the essences of
those who claim NDE, (which the greater majority of us don’t have,) never
really left their bodies. You’d be surprise how our sensory receptors are
enhanced while unconscious. Consider the dreams that you have.”
“This really contradicts his lengthy account in his autobiography where he
explains he attempted suicide and had a near death experience where he went to
the spirit world and mingled with numerous beings there. He presented this as
being absolute truth.
“I wonder how he would explain such a stark contradiction.”
Thu May 28, 2009 11:51 am
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You did, however, say one truth amidst your lies J.J.—which is that you “have no followers”. Compliments of Christopher for bringing the TRUTH to the world and exposing BS.
That’s why you’re so bitter and angry at him, so GREEN with envy and will try all within your power to bring him down.
“Shaking my head”
Sorry Bro.
Jonathan, if you love me, then….
CORRECTION…it was post #3545
Jules, if I love you what? email me if you want: timmyblanks@yahoooooooooooooo.com I need to stop cluttering this board with my personal infatuations.
Julie.. you are still wrong. I am not JJ. sorry sis.
And what is really interesting.. is that still to this day he can not explain the stark contradiction.. and neither can you. You just ignore the “true reality” of it… because dear Julie.. you would not dare question him. That would show him your lack of loyalty.. so you dismiss it with your eyes closed. You are still giving in to the BEAST. And that is fine. It is your life.. not mine.
64 But ye who condemn them (TSP & Christopher) and who believe that these things were invented by them that they might deceive you, why do ye not speak with the prophet of God that is now among you upon the earth?
65 Behold, I shall prophesy unto you and tell you why ye do not speak to him: Yea, Satan hath great power over your hearts and ye are filled with anger and hate towards him, even with the same anger and the hate that the Jews had against Jesus when he spoke unto them.
66 And Satan shall inspire you to not seek out this last prophet and speak to him of these things, for Satan knoweth that he shall confound you in your words. And if ye are confounded in your words, then what shall ye say of your understanding and your knowledge and the spirit which ye harbor inside of you?
67 Behold, ye shall go away knowing that ye do not know truth, and ye shall be empty and afraid to speak unto this latter-day prophet, even as ye shall be afraid to be in the presence of the Lord and listen to his words when he cometh in his glory.
68 And ye shall seek to kill this prophet and rid the world of him, because he condemneth you in your wickedness and casteth down your pride and your arrogance in those things which ye think ye understand of God.
69 And when the Lord cometh in his glory and calleth forth the plates of ore that my father and I have made with our own hands; yea, and ye have the Urim and Thummim explained and shown unto you, then what shall ye say?
70 Will ye look upon the Lord and say unto him, We do not believe these things, for they came forth from the writings of a man?
71 Behold, in that day when all the books shall be opened unto you, those of you who have doubted these things shall be ashamed and disgraced in the glory that ye have received from Satan
in the church of the devil to which ye belong.
i can explain the contradiction. i even thought about doing so right after that was posted on thesealedportion group. IT IS THE MOST OBVIOUS “EXPLANATION” that you wouldn’t believe it, especially because of it’s simplicity. and you still continue to wonder why NO ONE HAS EVEN BOTHERED WITH GIVING THE EXPLANATION THAT SEEMS TO BE SO ELUSIVE TO ALL THOSE WHO ARE SO WISE. you wouldn’t believe it.
there are contradictions in the book of mormon, contradictions in the bible, contradictions in the doctrine and covenants, and contradictions in the sealed portion, and then contradictions between all of these—- are you willing to list all these contradictions (apparent and/or substantial) and then give a conclusive explanation on why all these books of “scripture”(excluding TSP obviously) are false? (ASSUMING YOU DO NOT VARY IN YOUR APPLICATION OF YOUR SAME REASONING)
“every morning i make my bed, except for those times i forget to.”
doh…that’s a contradiction!!!!
[MATT 13:13] Therefore speak I to them in parables that they might not have the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven revealed unto them; because they upon seeing, see not; and upon hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[MATT 13:14] And thus is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but ye understand not; and see ye indeed, but ye perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed;
[MATT 13:15] For this people’s heart is waxed gross from that which they have heard from their leaders, thus their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed so that they cannot see the truth which I speak unto them. And their leaders tell them to listen not unto me, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[TSP 48:12] And now, I, Moroni, say unto all of you of the latter days who shall receive these things, even all the children of men of every tongue and every religion and every culture and every nation upon the face of the earth: Yea, all of you have shut your eyes and have closed your ears and have hardened your hearts that ye do not understand the simplicity of the message of Christ that hath been given unto you.
[TSP 48:13] And ye have been taught by parables and symbolism, and a similitude of the plainness that ye could have received from the Spirit of Christ if ye were doing the works of Christ. And every parable, every teaching, every doctrine, every statement, every principle, every word that Christ spoke in the flesh taught the simple truths of his gospel.
[TSP 48:14] But because of its simplicity, ye refuse to accept it and open your eyes that ye might see, and your ears that ye might hear, and your hearts that ye might understand.
time for bed
a brother from Our Common Father but probably different Mother’s
amwh
JJ, how can I be “wrong”?
It was the evidence of your OWN HAND that exposed who you really are.
Thus, as I said before, everything and anything you say, especially about a man you refuse to meet, or his works you refuse to read as Moroni charged us, should be suspect.
Again Julie… you are wrong. I can not speak much more clearly than that. I am not JJ. I am an active member of the Mormon Church.. JJ is not. I live in Oregon.. JJ does not.
This is the problem… You think you have put two and two together.. but you have not. You are short sighted on this one and you think that circumstantial evidence proves the “real truth”. It does not. You don’t have the “real truth”. You just think you do. Your “Holy Ghost” should testify this to you if you are listening. The truth is there.. but you can not see it. You are seeing what you want to see… but it is nothing more than the foolish and vain imaginations of your mind.
I know that Satan is the great deceiver.. but I do not desire to meet fact to face with him… any more than I would want to meet Chris face to face. There would be no point. I am not on a crusade to prove him wrong. People will do that on their own over time… and if not.. then they will find out when they die.. they were deceived.
And Julie.. your explanation of why he told his story one way.. and now tells it another.. is not the same as him telling it in his own words. But like I said.. you could not dare “question” him for fear of reprisal. For he would scold you for even being on this site and writing what you do… if he found out. He might even banish you.. again.
Jules,
I won’t banish you.
Now how would you know where JJ lives if you’re not him, JJ? LOL
You’re seriously losing it, JJ.
I tried to warn you before. (why I asked someone to post that video for you)
Since you obviously have access and are following (despite your public protests) Chrisptopher’s website at MWAW be sure and re/read post #1844 to see WHY you are.
You should quit before you bring any more damage upon yourself.
all i know is that every time i look in the mirror i come face to face with satan:)
Wow.. I wonder if because I know that Christopher lives in Melba, Idaho.. I am now Christopher as well?
Did you really ask the question: Now how would you know where JJ lives if you’re not him, JJ? LOL
Julie.. are you drinking again? Tell me.. where is the gathering held at? Boise.. no? I use to live in Boise from 1979 to 1994. In 1994 I moved to Portland, Oregon. Actually.. the majority of my family still lives in Boise. I have 2 sisters and one brother that teach school. I have one brother that lives in Las Vegas.. one brother in Montana.. and one sister in Georgia. I have one brother that was killed in a motorcycle accident while staying with my Dad who lived in Cloudcroft, NM. I am the oldest of 8 children.
I have 4 children.. 1 with my first wife who was a French girl from France.. I married her in Germany while I was stationed in the Army from 1974 to 1979. It was in Germany that I joined the LDS Church and then was sealed in the Swiss Temple in Nov 1978. After leaving the Army and moving to Idaho.. (I came from Michigan) We were divorced in 1982 where she went back to France. My next wife was from Caldwell, Idaho. We were married in 1983. We had 3 children together… Girl, boy, girl. She was working for KTRV Ch 12 and I for a top 40 radio station in Boise. In 2000 she passed away from cervical cancer.
Let me say this just one more time. I am not JJ. So please do yourself a favor and pick up the needle from the record that seems to be skipping. Your “real truth” compass is really not working at all. You think I’m JJ and Chris is a prophet. (Still shaking my head)
JJ, you know nothing about this work or Christopher.
It is with compassion for you that I say and do what I do.
Now have compassion on yourself and give it a rest.
Julie
Like I said Julie… you can not admit you are wrong. You have way too much pride… which is truly foolish. You have not learned yet to put aside that foolish pride and grasp “real truth”. You allow yourself to be blinded.
I know enough to know the deceiver has deceived and continues to do so. What more need I know? I won’t be drinking the kool-aid you are drinking and making any sort of toast. I will leave that to the “MWAW” group.. (All 86 members).
“Me thinks thou doth protest too much”
If you need the last word, JJ, which obviously you do…
Have it!
hi jonathan here is part 1 of 2. your last question on god’s monetary laws i will answer in a seperate post.
———————-
“Of course the ordinances are necessary…performed for you vicariously and have a place in the CK.”
“LET THE DEAD BURY THE DEAD…God IS NOT the God of the dead, but of the living.”
Why do the LDS not take the sacrament by proxy for the dead? is that not an ordinance? and if ALL THING ARE TO BE DONE IN ORDER, WHY DO THEY NOT ONLY NOT TAKE THE SACRAMENT AFTER BAPTISM/CONFIRMATION AND BEFORE THEY ARE ENDOWED, BUT SKIP IT COMPLETELY? After all there is repentance in the spirit world. Are the dead asked by the “zone leaders” and “AP’s” in the spirit baptismal interview if they would have been willing in their mortal life to pay 1/10 of all they earned to the church. In fact, maybe they are paying their spirit money to their spirit bishops and walking through the hallways of the spirit church and listening to the typed out re-talks given by their spirit prophets, spirit seers, and spirit revelators. I mean after all, what else is their to do in the spirit world and eventually in the “celestial kingdom” besides go to church and pay tithing to build vast temples when you have become a perfected GOD wherein your SPIRIT, which is HOLY, resides in your own body which is your TEMPLE, therefore making you EQUAL to your Creators and Christ which makes null and void all “ordinances” of any kind—and all this given to you freely:
“but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.. Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men….all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and NONE are forbidden.” [2 nephi 26]
MONEY entails that you WORKED IN ORDER TO RECEIVE, IN ORDER TO PAY FOR. but the lord states “come unto me and i shall give you REST, for my yoke is EASY and my burden is LIGHT.”
“have I not said that YE ARE GODS…the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU.” (not OUTSIDE, ie: carnal ordinances)
“On the other hand an endowed person that was unkind, bitter, dishonest etc. will be turned away, “I never knew you.” Why is that such a shock and why would any Latter-day Saint think it would be otherwise?”
you truly got me on that one…you are quite unique and i have met very few fellow lds that TRULY believe that.
“I’m surprised with all the common sense you think people should be using that you couldn’t extrapolate that for yourself.”
FIRST: what you say makes no sense to the majority of the worlds people (COMMON), so how could I use common sense to extrapolate an answer from something that seemed to be a contradiction to ME.
But is it “extrapolate” or ASSUME? perhaps it just might be common sense to not try and extrapolate what YOU THINK about what I ask you? Perhaps I asked a question BECAUSE I DIDN’T KNOW WHAT YOU THOUGHT, and aside from the core “pillars of a testimony” NO TWO LDS HAVE THE SAME UNDERSTANDING REGARING THEIR DOCTRINE . But IF I were to form an “extrapolative assumption”—your statement above would lead me to assume that YOU ACTUALLY THINK ALL LATTERDAY SAINTS WHO KNOW OF THIS SCRIPTURE (“i never knew you”) BELIEVE IN IT THE EXACT SAME WAY. And it could also lead me to assume that you are either very young/naive and/or have lived in Utah and in the same ward your whole life and have not paid any attention in ANY sacrament meetings, sunday schools, and priesthood meetings, general conferences, general priesthood sessions, stake conferences, stake priesthood meetings; have not read older ensigns, newer ensigns, any byu scholars/authors works; have “spot read” on very few “deep doctrinal” issues (such as “calling and election”), are completely ignorant of the evolution of church doctrine, and certainly did not pay attention to the most recent general conference where all the general authorities “testified of themselves”, praised each other, and more bewilderingly: “when [the]leaders of [the lds] churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.” yup, this general conference, wherein more than ever before, the leaders PRAISED, ADORED, AND ENVIED THE MEMBERS FOR BEING THE “CHOISEST AND MOST CHARITABLE OF ALL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.”—-“we thank thee o god that we are a holy and chosen people… O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren.”—”
but of course, I acknowledge that ALL THESE ASSUMPTIONS COULD BE TOTALLY FALSE, which to believe them and actually state them in a public venue would be “bearing false witness against my neighbor”, my brother:) Therefore, when you say the following:
“Why do you care about assumptions or what I think you are?If according to you everyone fairs the same in this world, what does it matter?”
….it is very clear that you EITHER do not equate using false assumptions about me to bearing false witness against me OR you haven’t really just thought about it to come to that realization. The question should be “do you not care that you make false assumptions towards others”. the only reason why i care is because it interrupts what could be a fruitful and flowing conversation about the contents of the sealed portion. to be honest with yourself, you must be honest about others. And the easiest way to be honest about others is to focus on their WORDS and ask them for clarification as to what they mean if you are not sure or if you feel the “assumtion flu” coming on. Again, the greater portion of your posts focus on making false assumptions toward me and what you think about me BASED ON THE WAY YOU REACT TO WHAT I WRITE because of your unwillingness to substantiate your claims.
In five seconds you can tangle a rope up in several unrecognizable knots, but it will take five minutes to unravel it so that you’re left with the rope in it’s original state.
As you know very well now:
FALSE ASSUMPTIONS WASTE TIME AND DEFLECTS THE CONVERSATION FROM THE CONTENT AND PURPOSE OF OUR WRITING TO REPLYING TO IDIOSYNCRATIC JUDGEMENT THAT IS FALSE AND/OR MISLEADING. This forum is supposed to be directed toward the sealed portion, not either of us.
…And also it is NOT according to me(as you have assumed:) that “everyone fairs the same in this world” , especially when I do not even use the word “fair” as you’ve defined it because it’s a “wandering generality” which you’ve proved from your preceding post.
i assume that this will be the last time that either of us will mention the topic of assumptions again. as for me, i’m glad you asked the question why i care, even though one might be able to extrapolate from all our posts the reason why…but that’s only if they had common sense:)
cheerful as always…now lets have some fun with your last question you asked me. but i will have to answer that later tonight or tomorrow.
till next time
AMWH?
The book of mormon was “WRITTEN FOR OUR DAY” and the REAL prophets HAVE SPOKEN unto us “AS IF YE WERE PRESENT”; and taking all that into context, do you really need to wonder that some of Moroni’s last words are: “ and YOUR churches, yea, EVEN EVERY ONE, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.” “But if it be defiled I will not come into it, and my glory shall not be there; for I will not come into unholy temples.” what about the “church” becoming defiled by the pride of it’s leaders and members hearts? Does the same principle apply? Moroni speaks to those who WILL ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON, “ why have YE polluted the holy church of god, because of the praise of the world” —-and who are the people that accept the book of mormon more than any in the world: YE ARE, ie: MORMONS, OF ALL KINDS.
“What’s your take on any of God’s monetary laws (consecration, tithing, etc.)?
I don’t share my “take”….but i’ll share “gods take” on the matter:)
“sell all that ye have and give to the poor” so eventually there will be “neither rich nor poor among yourselves, because ye will have all things in common”
the principle that can be extrapolated from the above “the law of consecration”, is equality, ie: COMMONality— where one gives according to their abilities and receives “sufficient for [their] needs”; maintaining that there be no rich nor poor
or is this “gods take”:
“put 50 % of your income in savings, use 39.995% for expenditures, and give 10% to the “church” so they can build temples that ye can focus on exalting yourselfs, and IF the deacons and teachers come by to collect fast offerings use the remaining .005% for a “fast offering” , which said fast offerings should go to those who are like-minded as ye are.”
the principle that can be extrapolated from “tithing” (using the perverted CURRENT LDS teachings of giving 1/10), is inequality. This very carnal and temporal law ensures that there will always be poor and rich, when the Lord declares that “there shall be no poor among you.” it is by this law that the rich in the church stay in the church, and it is this very same law that “grinds upon the faces of the poor” within AND without the church. For how many rich would even stay in the church if president monson declared: “sell all that ye have and give it to the church so we can distribute it amongst the poor.”
now, the former of “gods take” on the matter(consecration) is clearly the pure and undefiled gospel of Christ. But when that pure and undefiled gospel is rejected by those whom it was offered to, the Lord SUFFERS, (allows) the latter “gods take” on the matter (”tithing”), which is the LOWER law, a law of CARNAL COMMANDMENTS, AKA: MONETARY LAWS. The former when compared to the latter could certainly be termed “words of plainness”—for you cannot get any plainer that “sell all that ye have and give to the poor.”. And the latter, when compared to the former, certainly can be termed a CARNAL COMMANDMENT.
Jacob 4:14
“But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they DESPISED THE WORDS OF PLAINNESS, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble. ”
D$C 84:
26 And the lesser priesthood continued…and the preparatory gospel;
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, WHICH THE LORD IN HIS WRATH CAUSED TO CONTINUE with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
Heb 7:
16 Who is made, NOT after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an ENDLESS life.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 FOR LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, BUT THE BRINGING IN OF A BETTER HOPE DID; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Does tithing fall under the tent of carnal commandments or does it promise EVERLASTING life?
DISANNULLING: to utterly make void…UTTERLY MAKE VOID. What was voided? The law that was “weak” and “unprofitable,” which a tenant of said Law was TITHING.
D$C 29:
34Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and NOT AT ANY TIME HAVE I GIVEN UNTO YOU A LAW WHICH WAS TEMPORAL; NEITHER ANY MAN, NOR THE CHILDREN OF MEN; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.
35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but NO temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor TEMPORAL, neither CARNAL nor sensual.
So the appropriate question should be: is tithing a temporal law, or a “spiritual” law. Or in other words: is tithing a TEMPORARY LAW that will end when the Savior returns? OR, will we be abiding by this tithing law in the eternal worlds?…( where there will be neither rich nor poor because all things will be in common and there will be no such thing as money and since all fruit will be everlasting no one would be able to donate 10% on an ETERNAL INCREASE to a nonexistant church in order to build temples to have ordinances performed that they may be “exalted” once again)
But, ON THE OTHER HAND, the gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT TEMPORARY, because “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” will be lived by ALL THOSE WHO DO NOT DIE THE SECOND DEATH; aka, those who receive everlasting life.
You asked me: “Do you take care of the poor? How much do you give? All of your income apart from what keeps you afloat? Or does it not really matter because everyone fairs the same in this life?”
LDS who pay tithing, IN FACT, do their alms before men.. they put their name on an evelope and/or tithing slip, keep a receipt so they can claim deductions on their taxes which increases their “reward” (tax refund), and they are asked by another MAN if they are paying their tithing and if they answer to the affirmative they are giving a temple recommend SHOWING that they have paid.
“But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth… take heed that thou do not thine alms before MEN, [Those who do] shall have THEIR REWARD.” And what is that reward: the “glory of man” (the praise of Leaders, bigger tax refunds, temple recommend) and a self deceptive perception that without paying tithing in order to receive temple ordinances they will not actually become “exalted”.
but the poor who cant afford to pay tithing, who will not have the chance to receive the “ordinances of salvation”and exaltation,” will receive their reward openly from their heavenly father who seeth them in secret, when the Lord comes and before ALL, the “EXALTED SHALL BE ABASED AND THE POOR SHALL BE EXALTED.”
the irony of the LDS method of paying tithing when compared to the pharisees of old is stupifying. For their “tithes and offerings” were not given to the poor, hungry, homeless, or naked, but “you have made my Father’s house into a house of merchandize…a den of THIEVES.”
Jer 7: 4,11 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these… Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of ROBBERS in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
John 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, THE ZEAL OF THINE HOUSE HATH EATEN ME UP.
The tithing today in the LDS church is given to build temples, build synagogues (churches) pay temple workers (YUP), pay for the upkeep of the temples, pay the general authorities a very healthy salary (from the highest 12 to the lowest 70) enabling them to pay for their fine clothing, mansions, and vehicles; pay for their body guards, chauffers, and their expensive “towncars”, pay the church employees in the church office building, pay institue and seminary instructors , pay for the mansions that mission presidents and their families live in, pays for the MTC’s worldwide, and one last worthy notation: pays for the upkeep and salaries to the latter day scribes and philosophers who make their home at a place called BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY, BYU-IDAHO, BYU-HAWAII , BYU-ONLINE, AND DESERET BOOK:)
here is the perfect “type and shadow” containded in the story of Alma and his missionary friends:
11 Yea, in fine, they did pervert the ways of the Lord in very many instances; therefore, for this cause, Alma and his brethren went into the land to preach the word unto them.
12 Now, when they had come into the land, behold, TO THEIR ASTONISHMENT THEY FOUND THAT THE ZORAMITES HAD BUILT SYNAGOGUES, and that they did gather themselves together on one day of the week, which day they did call the day of the Lord; AND THEY DID WORSHIP AFTER A MANNER WHICH ALMA AND HIS BRETHREN HAD NEVER BEHELD;
13 FOR THEY HAD A PLACE BUILT UP IN THE CENTER OF THEIR SYNAGOGUE, A PLACE FOR STANDING, WHICH WAS HIGH ABOVE THE HEAD; AND THE TOP THEREOF WOULD ONLY ADMIT ONE PERSON.
2 Nephi 26 prophesies of the above LatterDay gentileS:
[29] He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world (become a source of “knowledge” for others), that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.
[30] Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing…
[31] BUT THE LABORER IN ZION SHALL LABOR FOR ZION; FOR IF THEY LABOR FOR MONEY THEY SHALL PERISH.
2 Nephi 28 continues with the same prophecy
:
[13] THEY ROB THE POOR because of their fine sanctuaries; THEY ROB THE POOR because of their fine clothing; and THEY PERSECUTE THE MEEK AND THE POOR IN HEART, because in their pride they are puffed up.
And what pays for the these— their fine sanctuaries and fine clothing….ya, you guessed it: TITHING.
So to pay homage to Malachi 3 which the Lord references in 3 Nephi 24:
“WHEREIN HAVE WE ROBBED THEE? IN TITHES AND IN OFFERINGS! Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse so there might be MEAT in my house.”
MEAT. For who? The poor. BUT THOSE WHO WERE IN CHARGE OF THE STORE HOUSE ROBBED FROM THE POOR
so, that is exactly how we rob the Lord: “inasmuch as you have done it unto the poor, YOU HAVE DONE IT UNTO ME.”
So, as long as the masses pay their tithing, the latter day “prophet” will never ask if they actually give to the poor by donating “fast offerings”.
HEREIN LIE THE THE FULLNESS OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, EVEN THE VERY “WORDS OF PLAINNESS” as contained in the book of mormon—
Mosiah 18:
[26] And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.
[27] And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.
[28] And thus they should impart of their substance OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL AND GOOD DESIRES TOWARDS GOD, and to those priests that STOOD IN NEED, yea, and to EVERY needy, naked soul.
[29] And this he said unto them, having been commanded of God; and they did walk uprightly before God, imparting to one another both temporally and spiritually according to their needs and their wants.
so, do i help the poor, give all my money away beside what keeps me afloat?
i don’t help any poor, i keep all my money and steal from others. but, why do you care! is it that you want to brand me as a hypocrite and upon doing so you think you can dismiss the truth of the message? i’m a fornicator and drunkard, use vulgarity, speak blasphemies, lust after every hot wife, but i do not bear false witness—oh wait, i think i just did, about myself.
any other question about ME!
Becoming perfect doesn’t nullify ordinances. Ordinances are steps everyone will take towards perfection. If they aren’t important why was Jesus baptized?
The sacrament is a renewing of covenants. It doesn’t make a new covenant. From that you should be able to figure out why it is not performed vicariously.
As far as tithing being unfair I refer to “to whom much is given much is required” which conversely we can assume (yes, sorry I brought that up again) to whom little is given, little is required.
“Are the dead asked by the “zone leaders” and “AP’s” in the spirit baptismal interview?”
Probably not, more likely it would be a spirit bishop or branch president but if there were spirit zone leaders and AP’s it wouldn’t bother me. Is there money in the spirit world? I don’t know. I doubt it but if there were I wouldn’t begrudge God making some kind of monetary law.
“What else is there to do in the spirit world and eventually in the ‘celestial kingdom’ besides go to church and pay tithing to build vast temples.”
Spirit beings won’t build temples. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are engaged in a lot of the things we do here like teaching, learning, enjoying each other’s company, etc.
“You are quite unique and I have met very few fellow LDS that TRULY believe that.”
I guess since you have met every Latter-day Saint you are qualified to think that they are all ignorant. I have met a lot of intellectual people like you but I’m not going to assume (oops) that the ones I haven’t met are all jackasses.
“…it could also lead me to assume that you are either very young/naive and/or have lived in Utah and in the same ward your whole life and [blah, blah, blah…]
You’ll never know.
“it is very clear that you EITHER do not equate using false assumptions about me to bearing false witness against me OR you haven’t really just thought about it to come to that realization.”
According to you it doesn’t matter if I am bearing false witness. There are no commandments according to you. Everyone will be saved.
“the only reason why I care is because it interrupts what could be a fruitful and flowing conversation about the contents of the sealed portion.”
Yeah, it would probably be fruitful to not be condescending and sarcastic also. Of course there’s no point in having a witness of the “Sealed Portion” or any other book because EVERYONE IS SAVED. Are they not?
“Again, the greater portion of your posts focus on making false assumptions toward me and what you think about me BASED ON THE WAY YOU REACT TO WHAT I WRITE because of your unwillingness to substantiate your claims.”
There’s no point substantiating anything for you. You are set in your ways (just like all the other intellectuals I have met). The scriptures are there for everyone. My goal is that people open them up for themselves. If they need an intellectual guide like you or a pharisitical member of the LDS church then they deserve what’s coming to them. On the other hand if they get curious enough to seek their own answers and come to a conclusion (either way) more power to them.
“This forum is supposed to be directed toward the sealed portion, not either of us.”
You’re unable to discuss the sealed portion without whining about Mormons so as a Mormon I will step up to the plate if I feel like it. The webmaster can decide if we are out of line and do what he thinks is necessary.
Don’t bother with part two. Christopher preaches that everyone will be saved. If this is true there is NO POINT in sustaining any kind of scripture or law. If it is not true that everyone will be saved please explain in two paragraphs who will be saved and who won’t. Two paragraphs. Those are the only things I will discuss for now on.
Hu,
Well, you posted this before I begged you not to. So a response:
“And YOUR churches, yea, EVEN EVERY ONE, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.”
So, you’re assuming he’s only talking about the Latter-day Saints?
“Moroni speaks to those who WILL ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON, “
No, he’s speaking to anyone that reads the book not just those that believe in it.
“Sell all that ye have and give to the poor”
I noticed he didn’t say “give everything to the poor.” Jesus had a treasurer. Why would he have a treasurer if they just gave everything away?
Temples. No need for them? Why did Jesus cleanse the temple if they were an abomination to begin with? I guess you’re saying he wasted his time.
President Monson doesn’t need to command us to live the Law of Consecration, as it’s already a commandment. In the temple (if you have been there you know this) we are commanded to live the Law of Consecration. Tithing is the lesser law and we live that until we are able to fully obedient to the higher law. Fast offerings indeed bless the poor. My sister’s family was blessed by it. My neighbors have been blessed by it. My community has been blessed by it. Cities have been blessed by it. COUNTRIES have been blessed by it. Ignore it if you want.
“Does tithing fall under the tent of carnal commandments or does it promise EVERLASTING life?”
It’s a temporal and spiritual law. It’s a temporal commandment for which we are blessed spiritually.
“LDS who pay tithing, IN FACT, do their alms before men. They put their name on an envelope and/or tithing slip, keep a receipt so they can claim deductions on their taxes which increases their “reward” (tax refund), and they are asked by another MAN if they are paying their tithing and if they answer to the affirmative they are giving a temple recommend SHOWING that they have paid.”
How do you know I don’t mail my tithing to the bishop in a plain unmarked envelope? How do you know I deduct it from my taxes? Why do you assume that every LDS doesn’t do the same thing? Does it matter? Tithing isn’t a donation. It’s a tenth of your increase. Anything you give above and beyond that is a donation. And why assume that most Latter-day Saints only give 5% to fast offerings? Does it matter to you how much they give? Does it matter to God if he’s going to accept EVERYONE into His kingdom?
“But the poor who cant afford to pay tithing, who will not have the chance to receive the ‘ordinances of salvation and exaltation’
The poor can afford to pay 10%. Why not? If you have $5 why can’t you give 50 cents? If they make nothing they pay nothing. They aren’t barred for paying what they can’t pay. I know a lot of poor people that pay tithing and are happy to do it. When I had little I gave little and I didn’t suffer.
“The tithing today in the LDS church is given to build temples, build synagogues (churches) pay temple workers (Nope, my mom never got a cent. I know the temple president. Not a cent.), pay for the upkeep of the temples (seems reasonable to me, a lot of poor people take those jobs), blah, blah, blah….’
Who took care of Jesus during his ministry? You mean people actually gave him food and lodging? Shouldn’t he have paid for it himself? Maybe he did, I guess we won’t know until we know.
“Why do you care? Is it that you want to brand me as a hypocrite and upon doing so you think you can dismiss the truth of the message?”
Well, you care about tithing so much and what happens to it so why can’t I care about what you do with your money?
And yes, I do think you are hypocrite. You believe that everybody will be saved and it doesn’t matter what you believe but your pride won’t allow you to let others live in blissful or not so blissful ignorance (as you would call it).
I’m your Huckleberry, Julie. Can I have more than one number at the event?
Sorry, I have no control over that, Huckleberry.
Jonathan et al, hope you’ll come. Aug. 29th 9am sharp in the SLC library.
Fear not to examine or open your mind for a couple hours—you can lock it back down as soon as you leave…
but you just might learn a thing or two.
What are you so afraid of?
I thought you’d be ‘testing’ or something. Either way I could promise you my mind could be open, but how then would I ask the really good questions - If I want to prove him for what he is then how could I be open? He wouldn’t give me his time to meet, or that was you saying time out due to crazy talk (your opinion), same difference I guess.
It is sort of like him picking and choosing if he is going to attack Joseph Smith’s character. I see CMN with way more flaws to show everyone, what is good for the goose who found a golden egg should be good for the gander who wants his chance too.
This has been a real tough choice for me before you posed your challenge, I have been tossing this around with pro’s and con’s both ways. I just haven’t come to a conclusion yet, been way more involved in a new project. It really is amazing what too much free time allows me to get into, probably better that some distance was taken when it was. As quick as he moves, it was better to let the drag out a bit and try to re-land later - you know after the hook stops stinging.
I’m hopeful it will work out where I’ll be there, the way I look at it is, there is one person I have met from your group who knows what I look like. So here is the pitch, I know what I want to Show and Tell his audience, BUT this is his big show, his ring, if he wants to call me out then it’ll be my turn to time to getterdone. You think he would really give me the stage time to show his faults, that is why I ask how many numbers can I collect from other attendees? It’s like verbal dancing, eye to eye - it so much easier to see the spirit take ahold of you and see you who is in control of the steps. Once I get dancing its just a flood of ability springs up. Is there a restriction list of items yet? Or rules to accept upon entering? Is there an indemnification notice?
No fear, you loose yourself for my sake you shall have your reward in heaven - that’s my hero talking.
Sort of silly now that I reread your post, you might not of been talking to me? Did Jonathan swoo you over? Oh well I just hate letting good comments go to waste.
And Julie for the record: Richard is really Richard according to his longer autobiography, I really think he has a crisp way of saying things. Unless JJ recapped his bio, but I doubt it. I wonder if Richard would come to the CMN ring show?
My bad, what are the odds there are two Richards with only 30 years seperating them - Richard Packham being the older who I thought this was. He is an opponet of the church, but with being in the same states and countries is pretty unique and convincing.
Getter,
Don’t take my name in vain. Julie’s alright. We could be this blog’s first interfaith couple.
Getterdone,
I am happy that someone realizes at least whom I am NOT. I am NOT JJ. I was born in 1956.. not sure when JJ was born.
And no.. I would NOT go to see CMN. It is 510 miles from my home in Oregon to Boise… that is 8-9 hours of driving.. and then probably another 8-10 to SLC. Even if I had the money to burn.. I would NOT burn it to go see someone I have no interest in. I will NOT be holding signs outside the SLC Library stating CMN is a false prophet. I will let him be and do what he needs to do. He creates his own path and those who choose to follow him… create theirs.
There is only so much “eye opening” you can do with people and you must then let them go and find out for themselves.
Richard,
Have you looked at the ‘other’ Richard’s website. Is it just me or have you not had the same path sort of, separated by 20-30 years? I tend to find alot of coincidences in life, though you each have differing views the odds of living in even just the same American cities is pretty staggering, now add countries.
When I first read about Julie’s prophetic leader and employer, his life too had way to many similarities to mine - we just turned out on opposite sides, same first name too. Maybe the mirror theory of SLC (New Jerusalem) and Original Jerusalem doesn’t seem so unique.
Any way I am just tickled the sealed off portion test subjects, are almost done with their incubation stage of the latest CMN dosage (regurgitated Matthew with bold italic alphabet soup broth), I will be interested in the neurotic side effects surely to come to light. It’s like seeing which apples will float out of the bunch, like when the hypnotist raises your arm/hand to feel the physical feedback to really see if your under or not, while thinning the group on stage for the show to come at the end of the month.
And really Julie it would be just easier, if he would just come out publicly and denounce Christ himself, and give the world some of his new True Reality - I am waiting and ready to witness this. I mean he has beat around the bush and said it, he just needs to make it clearer - so there is NO mistaken for his followers. Oh ya, I keep forgetting…… open minded.
Getterdone
Getterdone,
I am not sure who the other “Richard” is or website you are talking about… so my answer would be NO.
It is funny how I too wait for the apples to bob to the top. I sometimes can see the image of “Stepford Wives” when I read some of the responses from his group.
My wife being German.. has watched clips of Hitler speaking and can not figure out how he had the people believing what they did. The masses seemed in a “dream” state. So I see the same kind of thing with this group.
All I can say is that after 4 - 5 years.. his following is less than 100. It is a 100 more than it should be.. but hopefully kool-aide won’t be served at his next get together.
“The Sealed Portion—the Final Testament of Jesus Christ” (of the gold plates) has been translated!!!
Additional proof of its veracity (other than the astonishing document itself) is contained in ALL the works presently and soon to be published (seen at thesealedportion.com). It is proving to the world who is a True Prophet of God and who the “wolves in sheep clothing” are.
Sorry J.J. (aka Richard) but when it became necessary to warn the Missionary Department to prepare their young men and women how to respond to it—–it IS the very evidence this is no temporary or idle “nuisance” and it’s NEVER going away!!
My goodness.. the woman is relentless. She just doesn’t get it. She thinks I am JJ.. and she thinks she is right. What will she do when she comes to the knowledge that she is wrong? Admit it? LOL No. Anymore than she will admit that she is wrong about this sealed portion. She will continue to think she is right. That is blindness.
Yes.. the wolves in sheep clothing. Those who do what? Teach people to be better human beings? No.. your idea of wolves in sheep clothing is anyone who doesn’t bow down to Christopher and hear his words. LOL This is what happens to very intelligent human beings who are swindled by a swindler. It will go away.
Why don’t you explain, “Richard” how you came to plagiarize J.J.’s exact text/words from the TSP yahoo discussion group onto this site under your pseudonym, since you insist on maintaining your lies.
And how did you know where JJ lives if you ain’t him!!!? No one else on here said he lived in Boise but YOU. Liars are notorious for not being able to keep track of their own lies.
You additionally betray YOURSELF as to who you really are by always using the same M.O.– attack the messenger(s)—when you can’t refute their message!!!
You and your sad life are the evidences of what happens to those who mock God by “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed” and by denying the veracity of The Sealed Portion, when in your heart of hearts you know it’s true but you as you are incapable of distancing yourself from it and moving on with your life.
So you follow it around like a groupie lending your two cents here or there, hoping to pick up a disaffected follower or two. Get any?
I pity you, J.J. but you have no one to blame for your misery but yourself.
PS. But as per your usual M.O., go ahead with another personal attack and hopefully it will be the LAST word.
Julie,
I have asked and asked for my chance to show the holes in the “message”, and even if I have to Go through Nobody’s Business to get there. What kind of circus does the Cocky one put together, is this an IQ comparison now - I didn’t realize CMN was so far down the food chain for No.Bu. to rank so High. Either way, yes I can show his holes with out having to pour through his books to try to find a slip up - that would be the first mistake, its is easier to refute the Advanced Being theory choosing him, the “translation” he claims to have to done to come up with the text for the Sealed Portion, and the path he continues to travel - there would be SPECIFIC elements consistent with Higher Intelligence giving insights to “guiding” doctrine, especially when they should KNOW the future.
Yes, Julie I have asked way to many times, and you and your sweet sickle yielding leader just excused it away - it was always something with either of you two. By the way did you confess your sins of not testing to CMN’s full commandment, I would have thought upper list members would have to do it also fasting or blindfolded or with foil wrapped around your heads!!! Maybe you might get bumped down a ranking for this transgression, or does your donations get you doses of CMN praises? maybe a sticker - like donating blood does for one.
Face it Julie, you sort of have to be all or nothing - its what made you leave your kids, your disbelieving husband, your friends, your eternal salvation through Christ’s atonement - I mean it like bucketing out water of your leaders windowless vessel (and he is trying to plug holes with his group proof read self help books)however I don’t the “minnow” it is getting out of Heaven’s Triangle - you think God is going to dismiss all of Christ’s work for NoBu’s savant skills or Cocky Chris’s sweet sickle skills or WUFfy the beast’s marketing plan (why is it in a pyramid again?).
I am ready Julie, however I only wanted ALL this time to talk to Chris. I mean, I can let people choose their own fate. But I had questions he wouldn’t address, things didn’t add up - and his avoidance sort of sealed the deal for me. And only IF I sway 5, 10, or half of his audience - my happiness is rekindled in pulling them from the stinking ship, I mean sinking too.
Lets talk Julie, from your posts you must not have much going on all day. I’ll make time for you from my project, lets get lunch or something. Maybe you can see what John wasn’t hearing, maybe bring NoBu.
Chris
Not my LAST yet,
Getterdone, if you could manage to write in plain decipherable English then start your “holes”. If they make sense, I’ll post them on the other site. (try hard, Keep It Simple Stu.)
Otherwise, bring all your family and friends to the meeting, ask them to take a ticket so you may have their time.
However, you may wish to refresh yourself on Alma 30 before the meeting.
Know that I have WARNED YOU!!
I guess there are two different threads going on here….
This post was intended to follow my last remarks here (if I’m in the right place
PS. And IF by any chance, there is a kind bone in your body proving you know ANY little thing about the gospel of Jesus Christ you are claiming to defend, how about employing some here– especially when you’re asking for big favors.
Honey will get you many more “flies” than vinegar.
Maybe Getterdone is just another name for JJ Dewey!!
A few things you all have in common is…you have no peace and you make no sense. (see the recent message board at www.wwunited.org where Christ’s plan to heal the world is presented)
Those consequences are promised in “The Sealed Portion” for those who mock God by fighting His work and rejecting His True Messengers. (thanks for the visuals)
If you think that you would have accepted Jesus, the Christ as the Anointed One, or Joseph Smith Jr. as a True Prophet of God, or read the “Book of Mormon” had you lived during their day—you only need ask yourselves how ready, open, eager or willing you are to read The Sealed Portion of the gold plates the same way Moroni told you to read the first third, “with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith Christ..”.
“If WE had been in the days of our fathers, WE would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore YE be witnesses unto yourselves, that YE ARE the children of them which killed the prophets… Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city… O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and YE would not! (Matthew 23:27-37)
I hope you will reconsider the false precept given by false prophets that say: “but in the Latter Days the Lord would not allow the prophet to lead the people astray.” For there is a type and shadow in all things—the first shall be last and now the last has become as the first:
“In the Latter Days ye shall consider it perfectly; I have not sent these prophets yet they ran, I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied…I have heard what the prophets said that prophesy lies in my name, saying: ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed.’ How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? Yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart.” (Jeremiah 23)
“For among my people are found wicked men…they overpass the deeds of the WICKED; they judge not the cause of the fatherless, yet they PROSPER (with generous stipends, perk and benefits as they “rob the tithes and offerings” –who else could but those who hold the keys to the coffers???); and the right of the needy do they not judge…A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land: the Prophets prophesy falsely, and the Priests bear rule by their means—and MY PEOPLE LOVE TO HAVE IT SO.”
ARISE AND AWAKE OH MEN!!
Paranoia continues. Now both Getterdone and I are JJ. LOL this is just going beyond ridiculous. I got some woman telling me what is in my heart of hearts. Now I know it is time not only to walk away.. but time to run.
Goodness if I don’t believe in the wondrous one. Damn me if I don’t bow to the anointed prophet of God. For I shall reap my just reward for being the unbeliever. What? will I find myself in Hell?
Keep your life. Have fun… but I will not buy into the craziness that seems to follow that group.
Julie,
Here is your first hole. And if you are quick you can fix it before the masses know it. I went to your WUF site and typed in ‘Christ’ in the Search box - and you know what his name is not used once on the website! Tried ‘Jesus’ too. Then ‘Chris’, nope. Then ‘government, money’ - and wam bam thank you mam, all over, so I know the little search engine works,……. hmm hmmm I am thinking of more words, now.
So for simple minded folk like me, how does Christ’s name get thrown around so much and not once show up? That is why I tried Jesus to make sure. It sounds like Christ, it looks like Christ….. Julie if it doesn’t say it, don’t make stuff up, OK. It is CMN’s creation, nothing tied to Jesus Christ.
I tried looking for the pyramid too, guess that disappeared - probably smart idea.
Oh by the way where is the disclaimer that it isn’t a ‘Foundation’, and that all funds go to Chris Nemelka, I have an email from Sue that states this is so, should I post it?
Little oversights look silly when your Chosen leader is so Advanced? And Mr. No Balls, I like his emptiness too, he echoes like CMN though.
Getterdone
OK, here is the (easy and obvious) “plug” GD…this may come as a big surprise to you—but not everyone believes in JC.
If Christ’s name was plastered throughout that site do you think the Muslims, Jews, Atheists, etc. would want any thing to do with it, or stand behind it?
This program is for ALL God’s children, not just those who pretend to believe in Him.
PS Not one dime of the very piddly funds that are donated to the WUF go to CMN—NOT ONE.
To “Richard”….
“but I will not buy into the craziness that seems to follow that group.”
YOU ARE one of the crazy groupies that’s been following TSP— longer than I’ve been around!!!
Julie,
Why can’t you look at your post and see what you wrote - “Christ’s plan” I am sure everyone here can see that. And yes if its based on Christ’s teachings, then say so to everyone - CMN preaches True reality and ‘no faith’ say it as it is - what are you going to loose. Even other religions think Christ was a pretty superb indiviual. Just say it, I would want to know who the founder is too - why can’t Chris put his name on it. If the plan is going to stand on its own wouldn’t the people want to know where it came from - I mean Hitler had a plan too - but only in his country with his people did it work.
Let me be more precise here before I leave it alone well proved, if you don’t want anything to do with Jesus Christ or his teachings then why don’t you and your leader make it real clear like with a proclamation or other big word that means the same - No Balls can help I sure.
Here is Sue email just the way she sent it to me: Re: Financial Disclosure Request
From: Worldwide United Foundation (support@wwunited.org)
You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as junk
Sent: Wed 4/22/09 4:52 PM
To: Chris H (getterdone481@hotmail.com)
Dear Chris H,
As of just a few weeks ago the Worldwide United Foundation is no longer a legal corporation and therefore will no longer be keeping financial records pertaining to its activities. There are no officers or agents available to consider your request. This has happened so recently that the website has not been updated to show the change. It will be updated in the very near future.
The Worldwide United Foundation (TM) has been placed under the supervision of its founder, Christopher, whose work can be viewed at www.thesealedportion.com.
Any other inquiries should be made through that website.
I believe this will answer both emails that were received from you this day.
May there ONE DAY be NO POOR AMONG US,
Sincerely,
Sue Kammerman
WUF Secretary
I think Julie if the money goes to Chris Nemelka - the silly website should say SO, if it doesn’t then tell Sue I want my financial report on the ‘Foundation’ (these are public records, and should be availible on request - I think its is the law - unless you’ll claim CMN is paying taxes and child support on it - your choice public affairs director????).
Maybe a next step is anyone who want a copy of the email forwarded to them, can have it, just drop me your address - mine is: getterdone481@hotmail.com - my disposable phone number is 801-390-2282.
Julie,
If your still really to your word you’ll post that last email on your MWAW group site page. And tell me when your done fixing this hole and I’ll sens over my next one. Sort of coincidental, this last weekend in the very room where the sealed off pow wow is to take place they were hosting auditions for a horror movie here in Salt Lake. They asked if I wanted to try, but despite my charming style - I declined saying there are bigger messes to clean up first. Nice room though, good view of Washington Park and Museum - is it Library security or outside security you are going to use? I was surprised their armed too, valuable books - I guess, don’t worry I’m not dangerous I just have an amazing way of seeing through things without ’stones in my eyes’.
Come on, fix it quick, I on a roll, I feel it starting again. Heee HAAA Getterdone and clean
Chris Hasselhoff
Julie,
Are you there Julie…. I figured by time I got down with FHE you would have touted some other scripture and declaring CMN’s purposeful right to make stuff up because he was Chosen to do so. I still think records from Mental Institutions should be made public, I mean as a matter of public safety, like Utah thinks driving records should be, or child kidnapping…. Maybe I can see why CMN wouldn’t want his name there with WUFfy’s, does No balls have a better public record? FYI….Mr.No Balls = Nobodys Business if you didn’t know for new readers, he is the mystery person who is surrogate writing for CMN, while CMN is missing till his big show at the end of August, on CMN’s other two other group yahoo sites - MWAW and WUF
Julie I almost can’t wait my for my next question to come to life,- it has to do with why Advanced Beings wouldn’t chose CMN - its really good, BUT lets get real why waste all my fun audience participation questions here if you aren’t going to post them on the MWAW or actually fix the ‘hole’. The WUFfy vessel is going to sink with holes in it before the show, quick have him right another book or chapter on how Moroni saw WUFfy with CMN at its helm - ……..the following is a perceived advertisement……………from the new delivered super sealed off portion of plates from the hidden bottom compartment, Joseph never saw the false bottom!, and just in is also Moroni’s thoughts on CMN’s upcoming book “Light of the Moon” just translated from the gold plates outtake pages taken from Moroni’s trash and all this at no extra fee to heaven or earth…… end of silly fake advertisement…..
And yes I’ll ‘keep it simple stu’, right back at you, just cause you asked me nice and all. Getterdone
Chris Columbus
Getterdone,
See if you can grasp this concept…
I’m the President of Wells Fargo, but the money people deposit there does not go into MY pocket.
Next “hole”?
What kind of silly statement is that, if Chrisn Nemelka’s name is on the account, and the checks are written by him. Then the Money goes to him and none other. If he wont show finacial statements then obviously there are personal expenses being paid for - Comprende
And what about your lack of Jesus, don’t forget the hole is about the double standard you can’t seem to grasp. Make a statement do you believe in Christ or not and have the CMN do the same. In fact why doesn’t CMN help the Jewish faith out and translate the sealed off Torah section, while he is at why not the Koran - you get the point yet. If you (and the other sealed portion members) base all your teachings and statements off of Christ’s Bible and Book of Mormon then say it, other wise he means nothing to you, you just give lip service, or bear a false witness, either way you deny him - so just say it.
Fix the hole, then I’ll move on
Chris
Getterdone, have you read the Sealed Portion? Were you aware that it’s ‘official’ title is, in fact, The Sealed Portion, the final Testimony of Jesus Christ? Is it not the LDS chruch that is constantly defending itself against claims that it’s not Christian by pointing out that Jesus Christ is in it’s official name? It may not be a concept that you are familiar with, but a concept conveyed in The Sealed Portion is that the name of Christ is symbolic of the works Christ did, the way he lived his life, what he taught, how he lived. As far as I can comprehend the Gospel of Jesus, the Christ, is that we are, in all instances, commanded to love others and do unto them as we would have done to us. If THIS is ANTI-Christ, to hold to such an idea, and seek to embody such attributes, what then, is the Christ’s TRUE message to the world? What then is his TRUE message to all those sheep who would like nothing more than to hear his voice and do his will? Shall they replace such a message with “fight one another” “hate one another?” “seek to do harm to others”? And shall these be called the fruit of the true spirit of peace? The fruit of the TRUE gospel and spirit of Jesus Christ? If any of these things are a part of the TRUE Christ and his character, then, perhaps, those like me are indeed in error. But perhaps the way we deny the Christ is when we fail to live his gospel, and find the peace that comes from it. And if that gospel is nothing more and nothing less than to do unto others as we would have done to us, then to deny Christ, would be simply to deny this universally identified golden rule and peace that comes from loving others the way we would wish to be loved.
But if dear Julie, a WOMAN, who as one in the Church would say, has NO “priesthood,” then why in the heck do you give her so much credit? Many men seem to fall in love with her, perhaps you are one of them
At any rate, If you have your peace in the faith that you believe and practice, may you keep it dear brother.
Random Observer,
I actually started reading the sealed portion way back when, it didn’t feel right, it wasn’t the same message as the Book of Mormon - it was like Moroni got hooked on phonics while abridging the plates - the BoM had substance and verse while the sealed portion floated right around CMN’s circle of rants and raves - the fallacy of the LDS church, the rise of another, the error of the saints - I think at one point it practically spells his name out - where did Moroni all of a sudden get all this - even the most advanced or for that matter unadvanced still have a writing fingerprint. You can see this by taking any author, and attributing number values to words - smaller the word, or even more common words get a lower number. More letters and more complex Nouns, Verbs, Adjectives, etc. get a larger number assigned to them. Two rules to keep in mind, the numbers get added per sentence or verse. Then sentences get added together for paragraphs. Now you average each ‘rule’ - quantity of words by numerals totaled - keep track of this average by the books or chapter of the authors works. It becomes obvious the amount of filler material used - run on sentences, grammar structure. You really do see a fingerprint with this method. Now compare other works, unless there was a stroke or other mental retardation involved, the pattern stays consistent. Now compare Joseph and the BOM - there is a difference you can see his diary entries prior, during, and after the translation period you can see the meat on the stick - the caliper of grammar used for the BoM.
Now look at CMN’s works especially his early writings, and posts on the sealed portion yahoo group website (run by another person) - you can see the sentence averages, run with in a few points of each other - you can compare the sealed portion book with the same result. Now compare to the BoM - there is a difference. In Joseph’s description, the U & T are used so the translation has the same “light” - which is Heavenly Father’s gift to the person entrusted with them. However this doesn’t occur between the Book of Mormon and the Sealed Portion they are substantially different - grammar, structure, and internal dialogue conflicts. If Moroni was the only one responsible for the abridgement then the translation is to blame. The obvious fact is the BoM stood for over 170 years before CMN dealt into the ’sealed portion’ events, he came up with some good fictional writing and universal truths recycled back into scripture with his follow up supporting books, and him alone.
Want some real insight talk to some of the early members, and co founders - their stories all lay similar. Its just CMN, changing names/ changing his foundation/ he just keeps changing. And all this time standing on the Platform created by the Bible and the Book of Mormon who represent, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost - who CMN has said isn’t really needed to move up in this life, doesn’t need Christ’s atonement, don’t need to be baptised in his name - CMN has put himself above Jesus - thus touting his ‘Chosen’ role - Just like the Antichrist is foretold to do. And yes I am showing the world how their wool isn’t really hiding their true nature.
Julie and CMN have a “special” thing together, I am married and happily at that. Julie really lost a lot when she choose CMN over her family and LDS church’s salvation through Jesus Christ.
I really pour my life into defending Christ, standing up for something, giving back to him what he has done for me so many times. Each of us serve to set an example, mine is often viewed as rough and harsh - but sometimes it takes alot to scour through the grime to get things clean again.
Stand for something, stand for the man you have the best chance at salvation through, where as you could try another religion or faith who believes in another god or theology and then you can face them at Judgement.
BUT YES if the WUF foundation is based on Jesus’ example and teachings then give credit to the man, stand up for him, choose a side. Seems like CMN really wants a wide range of latitude to pick and choose were he will rest his head. For me I choose to have Christ watch my back, and I will set a witness of how the sealed portion is CMN’s fiction and nothing else.
And I am not harping on you, Random Observer - I have been sharing my message and findings since I stepped into CMN’s pile, and wanted to ask some questions to him and he shrugged me off. Actually he about ‘pissing’ on me then ex’d me out of his group website. So I started digging through the slime to see what really was going on, its just CMN’s pyramid on a sinking vessel. I am just trying to curb collateral damage, LDS excommunication is bad news - I’d work on new converts just as hard as saving over looked members running after sealed fiction.
I have been trying to meet with CMN since March, I think. And now just to think less than 3 weeks, for him to choose which side he is going to pick but I need to see this with my own eyes - interesting witness indeed.
But Julie unless he just wows the burning right into my bosom, I having a hard time thinking he is on the right side or same side as me. He might appeal to ones mind (understanding and wisdom) but as for one’s heart (love and patience) he falls way way short. Just look at what he has said in the past especially to his close friends/ members when they really needed some heart felt TLC, instead they just got more book quotes and get over it attitude. Jesus always managed to have both of these confirmations for one’s witness to know it is true and of him.
Getterdone
Julie,
I only became aware of the TSP this year.. March or April at the latest. So I have not been around as long as you guessed. But you keep on making your statements as if you have the “real truth”. It must sound good and look good on paper… but not so good in the “real” department.
Anyone who wants to check the validity of your statements need only go to thesealedportion yahoo discussion group. And verify the two posts numbers I previously gave.
Seriously….Give it rest JJ Dewey—or explain your plagiarism as requested.
Either way…it doesn’t look good for you as a purveyor of any amount of “Truth”.
Julie.. please read post #55. What does it say? Just the first line…
What are the first 8 words that I wrote in that post?
This is called the “real truth revealed”.
Getterdone, as long as we can agree to leave contentious arguments out of it, I will continue conversing with you. Think we could do that? For your last post directed toward me shows you are at least able to converse in a respectful way. IF we can keep to that same tone, then I have no problem with carrying on a conversation with you
I will admit I have never personally done the “fingerprint” method you mention to any book. But could you imagine if no one were to accept the Book of Mormon because it didn’t say, match the “finger print” of the bible authors who were all inspired by the “same” holy ghost, thus concluding that Joseph Smith made it up? Or if it did, perchance, match the bible the critics would simply say Joseph Smith plagiarized the bible (and they, in fact do). How then could a person ever gain a true testimony of the Book of Mormon if the finger prints DON’T “match”? Or heck, even if they do? Suppose I had never fully read the unsealed portion of the book of mormon…how should I know weather or not it is good if the fingerprint doesn’t match the bible’s? Should I not judge the book based on it’s own merits? And actually read the whole thing and them make up my mind?
Nevertheless, my understanding may be incorrect, but isn’t the “unsealed” portion of the book of Mormon actually mostly put together by Moroni’s father, Mormon? And the sealed portion, by Moroni himself? Thus, even with the “fingerprint” method you describe, would not one expect a difference in “fingerprint” in a book put together mostly by Mormon, translated by Joseph Smith, and one ENTIRELY put together by Moroni, translated by Christopher? Put together by TWO different original “Abridgers,” taking from COMPLETELY different “abridgment sources” and translated by two distinctly different people, would, in my mind, make an “exact” match of fingerprint to the final “product” seem highly highly improbable. You got Mormon abridging from plates of Nephi. You got many different people writing on the plates of nephi. You got Moroni contributing to the end. Then you’ve got Jospeh Smith translating this all into Kings James English of the early 1800’s. Then in the sealed portion, you’ve got moroni abridging the vision of the brother of Jared, adding in his own insights, and all of this translated by Christopher in the year 2004, who, to make it better “match” the king James vernacular of “accept scripture” had to transpose it into the King James way of saying things.
Nevertheless, are you saying you actually did this finger print method to the the ENTIRE Sealed Portion? The whole book?
What you said in the last post to me was
“I actually started reading the sealed portion way back when, it didn’t feel right, it wasn’t the same message as the Book of Mormon”
I don’t know if that means you finished it, and therefore were able to actually do this fingerprint thing which maybe you have. But, here is a question for you, that may seem non religious haha.
Have you ever watched a movie that, for the majority of the movie you were like “hmmm…I don’t know about this movie…I don’t know if I like it…” but then, once you see the ending, and THEN process the movie your opinion suddenly shits to “well, no okay, NOW I like it.” It’s happened to me anyway!
The point, understanding the ultimate message of ANY book, or in this case, the sealed portion, is something that can only be TRULY understood once you’ve “seen” the “whole movie.” Not that a person doesn’t have the right to walk out on a movie at any time they wish! But that’s not to say they wouldn’t end up liking the movie had they stayed for the WHOLE thing! Thus when people criticize the movie, the ENTIRE movie without even SEEING the ENTIRE movie, their assessment of the ENTIRE move is almost not even fair to the movie!
“This movie had a poor message.”
“did you see the whole movie?”
“no. But I didn’t like what I saw.”
“But then how do you even know what the ultimate message of the movie was?”
The point- you, me, Roger Ebert, whoever, would indeed be in better position to be a “credible critic” of a book, movie, whatever if you, I, he/her actually open minded READ/saw the entire work first and gave it a fair chance, Just as all the missionaries try and get people to do with the UN-sealed portion. Then if, say in the case of the Sealed Portion as presented to the world by Christopher, after honestly reading the WHOLE thing, you have a legitimate case as to how it could be considered “anti-christ” or something that “deny’s the atonement,” or is somehow a “bad fruit” from a bad “tree”… a work that DOESN’T lead a person to doing good and loving others, then sure, by all means use your divinely given free agency to form whatever opinion you want, or keep whatever one you currently have. Or don’t even read it all! That’s the jist of free agency anyway, right? That we can all do whatever we want….so long as what we do doesn’t stop or impede another’s right to do the same.
But a clue from Moroni that I happen to agree with as far as “judging” something to be of God or not actually comes from the Good Old un-sealed portion:
“For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter watter; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Chirst; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil. Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and do do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually…For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil”
If the Sealed Portion, the Final Testament of Jesus Christ, as presented to the world by Christopher Nemelka, does NOT lead or invite a person to do good, love others, and follow the teachings, life and example of Jesus, the Christ, then perhaps using Moroni’s explanation he is indeed a tool of the devil, and “anti-christ” as you seem to feel…but, then again if, perchance, it actually DOES lead a person to doing good, loving others and following more closely to the gospel of Chirst…then what? Shall then it not be deemed of God? Who shall then stand forth to call it evil?? To say it’s not good?
At any rate, I wish you well Mr. Getterdone. And if you go to the Seminar please just don’t try and hurt Chris or something. I don’t think you would, but I mean, even if chirs is your enemy, are we not counseled as followers of Jesus to love our enemies, and do good to them? So why don’t you use Chis’ own Christian council against him and Love the Hell out of him!
And be nice to Julie! haha
peace, brother
Random Observer,
Pretty good points, I am more intrigued first with how ‘random’ are you. Not many stumble on to the TSP with out really wanting something more than they already have (in knowledge). I admit the reason I found it was searching out a clip in a newspaper editorial that referenced ‘TSP’. I had not heard anything of the gold plates being ‘re released’ at least not through church channels. Then there I was looking through the myriad of information on the SP website. Personal stories, books, a foundation, question & answer section, and a group yahoo forum.
I did a lot more looking into things then most do, and yes I can see why CMN says the work should be judged on its own merits and not his - tough past for certain but, odd irregularities for a person of such a caliber to be selected by Advanced Beings. I searched just what was available to me through public channels and I found enough to sway me different if I was going to choose someone for such a heavily scrutinized role of the TSP. I can see how Joseph too had his questionable ‘treasure digging’ reputation so I could give some room for allowances.
I read in a different fashion then most, usually there are multiple books read at once. On my night stand I have had up to 5 at once where they rotate with different days or just different moods. On an occasion a book will grab me and then it gets preference till finished - one of the last ones was the “Left Behind” series - also good fictional writing. So back to the TSP, a dozen chapters or so into it I remember the ‘fingerprint method’ from back in school when plagiarizing has been investigated by professional writing detectives - their access to the computer software makes the determination for them in minutes. Being without such software I started by hand, taking the TSP some from the beginning, middle, and end - then checked his temple story, parts of 666, and his ‘over lengthy’ group postings. One of the big clues was length of his sentences - like me I like using commas, dashes, and punctuation to keep one going till my thought is ’rounded out’. Then I start again - this happens to most people to some degree, however the amount of substance you want in it and how articulate you are is really based on the person’s grammar history. And yes people do tend to write like they speak, so patterns do become obvious - and especially improper usage of grammar. Long story short - the glove/shoe fit, the TSP was right in line with CMN’s grammar/ vocabulary - well what to do??? So I asked some questions, and the answer always came back have you read everything? Have you read the other works? —- It was always something I wasn’t doing right. SO things don’t add up and I can’t get a straight answer, what is going on here - this should be a like ‘riding a scripture bicycle’. I have learned how it works, but why is it going in circles - there should be level on level of intertwined Book of Mormon messages, and lots of amazing new pure knowledge. I mean this is why it was held back, the human race wasn’t ready for it - they weren’t ready for more light - but instead in one part - I read about how in error the LDS church is —- I mean what the hell, Heavenly Father who won’t deceive you - gives you a book on his restored church and they already should know its not going to work according to the TSP - and so they start over with CMN?
Come on Heavenly Father isn’t into wasting his time or watching things go astray for over 150 years before he is going to give it a tune up. And it surely wasn’t a lack of persons who could of fit the bill to make the changes sooner, or think about this for a minute: If Joseph was ‘period’ selected because of the new printing press availability - this really helped the growth by far. So now the next big ‘distribution’ period was radio, then television, then movies, then internet - all of these periods had their day in the sun so to speak - so where was the corrective measures by Heavenly Father in each one of these periods? But as knowledge and access to world wide aspects of information - something unique did happen, 3 people came out with in 10 years of each other The Sealed Portion of the Gold Plates - CMN being the last, but who is to say the first 2 aren’t the real ones?
With this being said then it does go to character, who are you going to believe in? Who does your mind and heart witness for you is the right one?
This is where I checked out, I saw the loose and fast way CMN brought the TSP into existence and his personal history that made me think twice. I look at the two other websites on their works and I don’t see the fruit there either - the PO box is one of the first clues for me, if its working and of Heavenly Father you would need a real connection to it. Meetings, donation center, events - all of this to strengthen and grow your members.
I agree, ALL of this aside if a person’s program or organization’s program helps the way Jesus Christ showed us - then say so. I have no issue with that BUT when CMN states his Advanced Being theory and how with his steps you can do it with out Christ, and you get baptised by fire in your soul/ heart by the Holy Ghost, you have been misled and are missing a part of the recipe.
I would be more impressed if CMN’s Advanced Beings were Heavenly Father and Jesus, that would probably be more probable to me. So like I pointed out if part of him says TSP - ‘final word of Christ’ then part says WUF - ‘good for the world’ and his personal life says - ‘do what I say, not as I have done’ - what do you think that recipe makes - a pile of crap.
And like I have said from the beginning, his path really fits the Bible’s depiction of the Anti-Christ the person. He desecrates the temple (both by his “vision” and his SS book), the denies Christ, he persecutes the saints, and many other items (I have a whole list I have posted in the past if you want it). And my most recent surprise is interacting with one of his ‘frogs’ out of his mouth, because CMN gave him his name and charge to serve him in his absence - Nobody’s Business.
CMN often asks about the ‘locusts’ in Revelations, they are your cell phones. They buzz like insects, they torment the one with the mark of the beast (being of the world), and their tales (though the Bible says tails) sting them. The bill collectors, the rumors people spread (false witnesses), all the stories that get into people’s heads - that causes torment, depression, and panic. These little pests everyone has one, however with followers of Christ the mindset is different the ability to go to him in prayer to find comfort in his strength. For the people who don’t have Christ, the burden we build up in our heads does become endless torment - for most see this life as all there is, to them money and status is everything. The worst is yet to come for the torment they will cause.
In a way I guess I walked out on ‘CMN’s book’ but the movie in my head that was supposed to be like a prequel or sequel to the Book of Mormon, and it wasn’t making sense. And before I donate my ‘mind’s real estate’ to a waste of time, it needed some more explanation. So that is when I started disassembling the whole ‘CMN circle’ to see what was going on, I asked questions and got dismissed, I looked into his history and got surprised, I pondered and studied it out in my mind and got nothing but strange fiction, and so I looked for who else he could be and got saw him as the Antichrist (or at least a spot on match as a type and shadow of the real AC to come).
If at his pow wow, he just comes out and says it in plain English so everyone can hear it - then I am done, his followers know the truth - whether they see that way or not they heard it, — What side are you following, Christ or your Advanced Beings???. The LDS church has with stood many attacks in may different forms, but if CMN roars up further than where he lays now - I’ll be back.
In a way he is serving a purpose, however you look at it, if a disgruntled member has dismissed all the church teachings and has found his or her needs in CMN’s world then maybe they were meant to be there - I guess some of the wheat and tares will sort themselves out ‘with out hands’. I had my 20’s to attest to trying things that were forbidden growing up under my parents roof, I learned my lesson from it. If I can help some of ’seeking members’ then I feel my back was suited for a specific burden in this life, to help others wanting more input.
Yes if it was a matter of loving the hell out of him, I guess I could… but somethings are deeper than love, can heal on its own, if he is happy doing his thing then so be it. He probably should fathom that in time there will be someone with real damage done to them because of his methods, Advanced or Not, and their resolve may take them beyond reason and consequences. I can’t believe how many persons that follow him, leave families/ kids/ their whole lives - odds are eventually breaking up that many more scenarios will have a wayward result. Not my suggestion only a perspective, when his counsel is rough handed to especially those who need something to hold to - it makes for a weak foundation to count on.
You want to know where the bottom less pit is??? It is in a “mothers heart”, for she has no bottom to how far she would go for love for one of her own. Love will be the ingredient which will save this world. I think people will be surprised how they are supposed to use their minds and hearts together, and not alone.
My best prayers and thoughts are for you Random Observer, for your patience and comments have indeed taught me something here tonight.
Getterdone
Getterdone,
I enjoyed reading your points. I was, in fact, interested in the sealed portion upon reading that it had apparently been translated by Christopher on a website years ago. For many years I had spent much time trying to find answers and piece together what seemed an almost unsolvable puzzle of essentially all the things I had come to wonder. Thus, in my individual case I suppose I wasn’t as critical of it when I read it, more just interested, and, I will admit, in my heart I thought it was true even though I had never met Christopher. It did personally make sense to me, but I understand that that’s just me. I have no jurisdiction as to weather or not it should or would make sense to another. But that is why to me, while interesting in it’s own right, such fingerprint techniques don’t really matter to me when it comes to distinguishing that which is, by Moroni’s protocol, GOOD, and that which is bad. To me it’s more about what is actually conveyted, the concepts presented, and the overall theme. And it’s potential of cranking out peaceful, pure hearted people who just want to love others and do good and live in peace with themselves and others. I mean to me It could be some po down hick talk sayin “i reckon we should be loven our youngins and each other liken ourselves,” to me, that’s still the same message of the gospel! Whatever work has the greatest potential of cranking out the most kind, most pure, most sincere modern day anti-nephi-lehis, is, to me, a work that would HAVE to have as least SOMETHING worth while.
But here are some of my thoughts in responses to your last post to me.
Again, I will admit, of all my experiences in this life, using an actual urim and thummin is not one of them! So I don’t really know personally the exact details of how they work or worked for either Joseph or Chris in terms of the “plate translation process.” To me it seems reasonable, however, that what is actually received, is whatever is conveyed on the plates into plain old English, or as perhaps at times even an image. It is then up to the one receiving the message to “transpose” what is received into the wording of “already accepted scripture.” Critics of Joseph Smith, for example, will point out passages of the Book of Mormon that “suspiciously” match passages of the bible. Or seemingly random words like “adieu.” Passages of Isaiah and the sermon on the mount would seem, to critics, as simply direct plagiarisms form the bible. Is it not possible Joseph Smith had to use some of his own language understandings and abilities to get the book of Mormon in a format that would “sound” in a familiar context as that of the already accept book of Scripture to the christian world, the Bible? But I would say, if you really want to have a case with the fingerprint method, you should do it to the ENTIRE book! Who knows, you might find you like the movie after all after “seeing” the whole thing!
Now, again, personally it doesn’t matter to me what you have personally concluded in terms of who is right and who is wrong, if what you believe makes you happy! But you mention that to you it seems like Christopher is not of a high enough moral character to be chosen for the work of, say, translating the sealed portion. All I can say is, isn’t it true that many rejected Christ because they saw him as a sinner? Now, in retrospect it’s easy to see that Christ was perhaps “right” after all. The point, judging someone by the rumors said about them, or the actions they made in their past, to me, seems unwise. Especially if you have never personally met them for yourself! If I want to know if someones “prescription for personal peace” has any validity, then I would say the best thing to do, is honestly hear them out giving them the benefit of the doubt, and then fairly TEST out weather or not their “protocol” actually works. If, in the end, their words, works and/or fruit leads a person to more personal peace, and more towards truly loving others, without needing to give ANY glory to the messenger, then, in my mind, the message is “of God” as scriptures would say. IF it leads to contention, bitterness, and strife, or having to give any sort of “praise” or glory to the messenger, then, as the scriptures would say, it’s more from the “Satan” department. So all I can do is a person is examine my own heart and weather or not I am seeking out measures of peace, or measures of strife and discord.
But you ask a good question:
‘who is to say the first 2 (sealed protons) aren’t the real ones?’
Anyone or no one! All one would have to do is give them a fair chance, completely read them and decide for themselves. I’m sure there are perhaps those how would say that are the real ones. Though I’ve never personally talked to one that I’m aware of.
As to the point of the interpreted denial of the necessity of baptism…
Maybe it’s not about the NECESSITY of being baptized, but what constitutes a true baptism. Your definition of baptism may simply differ than that of the ultimate concept of baptism as presented in the Sealed Portion. It just depends upon how person chooses to look at it! Someone could very rightfully make a case that the sealed portion and even Christopher ABSOLUTELY teach that baptism, yes even by immersion, and, yes, even by fire, is, in fact, a necessity before one can ever “enter” into true peace or “heaven.” So is becoming like a little child first right? So it’s all just how a person chooses to look at it. But if we took fire as literally as we do water then we should all have a flamethrower room in which to baptize ourselves! So I guess it just comes down to a matter of perspective!
Also when you say:
“So like I pointed out if part of him says TSP - ‘final word of Christ’ then part says WUF - ‘good for the world’ and his personal life says - ‘do what I say, not as I have done’ - what do you think that recipe makes - a pile of crap.”
Well, in my mind it would make…one book of Scripture, which may or may not be true, and could only be known by sincerely giving it an open and honest COMPLETE read and then forming an option, one humanitarian organization, and one fellow human being.
But one man’s crap is another mans treasure! Which is why personally I believe in the council to respect others’ beliefs as if they were your own. But if it’s crap to you, if, to you, it’s not true, then may you walk your way in peace and happiness in the way that works for you!
Maybe for the past 150 years the “funlness of the everlasting gospel” was not taken……maybe just misunderstood! Maybe for the last 150 years the gospel has been here in the words of Christ as delivered to the ancient inhabitants of America…but maybe all the plain a precious parts were simply buried under the confusing and conflicting options, notions, and or “doctrines of men” attempting to incorporate this gospel into their Churches! And so, perhaps one of the functions of the sealed portion is to, once and for all, bring to light just exactly what IS the gospel and what is so plain and precious about it.
Maybe Heavenly Father simply allows us to be lead by whatever type of leaders we want, and will give is whatever we seek, weather simplicity, or complicated religions. Maybe he allows us to have whatever we are after so that we can learn. And maybe through it all, he loves us no matter what, and simply wants us to learn for ourselves so that we can come to finally see the need for a Christ, and the need and value of truly living the Gospel. I mean I think it’s at least possible anyway
But I would have to agree with you on the capacity of great love in the heart of mother. Even, and perhaps most especially, in an eternal mother! And, likewise, as I said, whatever work shall have the greatest potential of bringing out the most love in human kind, to me, whatever work brings the most respect, the most love, the most honor to all women, and mothers, is the work that I shall gladly go down with the ship with.
WHICH IS WHY YOU SHOULD ALL BE NICE TO JULIE
:-)
At any rate, whatever you shall choose to do, or simply continue to do, my best prayers and thoughts are for you as well Gettterdone.
Peace!
Random Observer
This was sent to me by a friend of mine. Now I did not write this.. it was brought to my attention in an e-mail I received.
Two or More Witnesses
Two or more Witnesses against the Sealed Portion
Even though there are not two or more witnesses to the gold plates or
supernatural visitations that Chris claims, there ARE two or more witnesses that the Sealed Portion was a work of his own hands.
The first witness comes from the Sealed Portion itself.
This is found in chapter 47 where it comments on the following vision by Joseph and Oliver at the Kirkland Temple.
D&C 110:11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
D&C 110:12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
D&C 110:13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
D&C 110:14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi — testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come —
D&C 110:15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse —
D&C 110:16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
Now… Concerning this visitation the Sealed Portion says:
47:20 For these two did have the heavens opened up to the eyes of their understanding and there appeared unto them Moses, and Elias, and Elijah, and committed unto them the keys of administration in the priesthood, so that these could go forth into the world and begin to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
21 But on this occasion, there was no physical or mortal contact with Moses, or Elias, or Elijah, BUT THESE THINGS WERE DONE BY THE EYES OF THEIR UNDERSTANDING BEING OPENED UP UNTO THEM. And these things were done in similitude of those things which were done among their fathers, even among the Jews and those of my fathers who were upon the land in which these two in the latter days shall dwell in the latter days.
22 And this first prophet shall say unto his companion: Thou knowest that the people of this world are prideful in that which they believe. Behold, they can hardly accept the revelations of God that have been given unto them already. And except they believe that an angel of God hath given these things unto us, they shall not believe that we have been given the authority to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, which we have been called to preach.
23 Therefore, LET US GIVE UNTO THE WORLD THE WORDS OF OUR UNDERSTANDING that we have received this day in the house of the Lord, so that they may be accepted by the people as that for which they are waiting and anticipating.
24 And with this first prophet, his companion shall agree and make a solemn promise that he shall never reveal unto the world that Moses, Elias, and Elijah DID NOT ACTUALLY APPEAR UNTO THEM IN THE FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT, WHICH IS HAVING THE EYES OF THEIR UNDERSTANDING OPENED UNTO THEM.
25 And now, this prophet did nothing contrary to the will of the Lord in this thing. For behold, the children of men are slow to learn the things of God and are even slower to righteous works. And for this reason, the FATHER ALLOWETH HIS SERVANTS TO TEACH THE PEOPLE
ACCORDING TO THEIR UNDERSTANDING and prepare a way whereby they might be more receptive to His words.
***************************************************************
What do we learn from this?
According to the Sealed Portion Joseph and Oliver really did not have a visitation from Moses and Elijah, but only saw them through the eyes of their understanding. Since this type of seeing wouldn’t carry much weight with their followers because they are “prideful” they made a secret combination type of agreement to hide the truth and present the lie that they had a visitation far beyond the mere seeing with “eyes of understanding.”
Now the astounding thing is this. The Sealed Portion says that Joseph did nothing wrong and God allows this type of deception. Hmmm. Which God allows this?
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for HE IS A LIAR, AND THE FATHER OF IT.” John 8:44
The truth is this. It matters not whether it be God, angels, a prophet or ordinary man - a lie is a lie and it is wrong and contrary to the laws of heaven. A lie puts a person on the same side as the adversary of truth. In fact, it makes him an adversary to truth.
There are many times that the whole truth is not revealed by God or his servants, but that which is revealed will be as true as truth can be when placed in mortal words.
Now we see revealed in the Sealed Portion itself that a visitation may merely be something that is merely seen with “the eyes of the understanding” some of the previous witnesses concerning Chris and his work make a lot of sense.
Witness #2
Here’s a quote from the Salt Lake City Weekly by Ben Fulton December
27, 2001. Here it is quoting a friend of Chris named Kyle Williams.
Nemelka sent him a copy of his sealed portion, but (Kyle) Williams never bothered to read it. “He told me he was doing it as a way of mocking the Mormons. He was a real interesting character,” Williams said. “I had hoped he would come to his senses and live a normal life, but he’s gone the other way. He’s continued with his religious nonsense.”… Williams, his old friend, thinks of Nemelka this way: “What he believed, really, was that Joseph Smith was doing the same thing that he’s doing. That Joseph Smith had a vision of improving
people, of helping people, and that he used falsehood to further that purpose. He thought Joseph Smith invented the golden plates story and all that to further the ethics of Mormonism. Chris set out to do the same thing with his sealed portion.”
Witness #3
Another witness comes from a letter written in Chris’ own hand: In an
April 2, 1993 letter to one of his wives, which Nemelka admitted to having penned, he wrote: “When I deal with people, I am amazed at the ignorance and stupidity of most. People are so easily manipulated and deceived. Knowing this has made me a near master of manipulation. I try only to use this art, however, to help people. Sometimes the things I do seem terrible at the time, but usually
the manipulation works to accomplish that which I intended.” SLC Weekly
Witness #4
Here are some witnesses against the Sealed Portion in Chris’s own
words as quoted from the SLC Weekly:
“When I came out and told these other polygamists, fundamentalist guys, that I had really written the sealed portion, that I had done it just to show people that it could be done-they were very upset.”
“All the revelations are bullshit, of course. I made ‘em up.” But he did it all for Marie, and Marie alone, to comfort her. Marie needed the comfort of her religious convictions, and he could provide it with his writings
My whole purpose, though, was to write the sealed portion. Get the sealed portion done. Sell it to the church. My whole idea was to sell it to the LDS church. I was going to sell it to them, because all the Mormons are looking for the sealed portion to come back. I thought I had a good talent for writing. I was going to write it up and sell it to them. They could do with it what they wanted. They probably would have kept it off the market.
I set about in my own mischievous and arrogant way, of which I’m not proud of now, to prove that a person could actually write scripture and present it to people who were looking for certain scripture, Nemelka said. “I was playing on the belief that LDS people have that one day the gold plates would be returned and the sealed portion would be translated. Basically, I set about to write a fictitious version of the sealed portion as I thought Joseph Smith would have
written it had he continued to perpetuate his translation of the gold plates. Much to the chagrin of the LDS church and others, what I wrote was indeed well versed and quite appropriate for the scripture I was trying to portray. Anybody who reads it would just be totally amazed.”
My true intent was to somehow perpetuate a religion that would be based on true Christian principals of Christ-like love, Nemelka explained in a phone interview from jail. “Where I made my greatest mistake, for which I’m now extremely sorry for, is that I used deception to perpetuate what I proposed as the truth, assuming at the time that Joseph Smith had done the same thing.”
End of Quotes
It is interesting that the Sealed Portion itself reveals that Chris thinks Joseph used deception to present the idea he had visitations and this was OK.
Even though Chris now says he lied to the Newspaper to get out of jail the quotes seem to be in alignment with the Sealed Portion itself.
Chris actually states the following in his own words in his autobiography from his website: “I thought nothing of telling Ben Fulton that I had made up the whole thing…”
Presently he maintains the Sealed Portion was divinely revealed but it is difficult to take this claim seriously when he “thought nothing of” denying the whole thing.
Do you think that Joseph Smith could have denied the whole revelation of the Book of Mormon and thought nothing of it?
Could Moses have denied his visitation from God and thought nothing of it?
I don’t think so.
At this point, even if the Sealed Portion were true there is so much damage to the truth caused by this modern day prophet that God would have to start over again with someone who basically believes in telling the truth.
After studying the details here is my personal conclusion.
I believe that Chris was a sincere member of the church early in his life. Unlike many members, after his mission he continued to study his religion, its history and the scriptures.
After gaining much knowledge he had a number of discouraging things occur in his life that made him doubt the existence of God. A turning point was when he worked for the church and his image of the general authorities was shattered. He took a second look at Joseph Smith and concluded that he invented the gold plates and wrote the Book of Mormon himself. The supernatural visions were also invented to promote Joseph’s new religion.
Even so he saw a saving grace in Joseph - that Joseph Smith had good intentions. That is, he had ideas that would make the world a better place and if a deception would help accomplish this end then it was worth it.
Chris also had ideas that he believed would make the world a better place so he thought he would follow the same path. He felt he could write a work as convincing as the Book of Mormon and set out to do so with the idea it would be the Sealed Portion.
The Nemelka version of the Sealed Portion thus came into existence. The true urim and thummim was the “eyes of his understanding.”
End of E-mail received.
J.J. if that didn’t come from you then it must have come from the Town (Tom) Cryer. (and you actually took the time to read that crap–lol)
If you would just read the book (TSP) for yourself (you’ve spent more than enough time combating it) you wouldn’t look so foolish.
The “Witnesses” question has been answered ad nauseam (http://qanda.thesealedportion.com/qna_threads//read.php?19,113) but alas, there are none so blind as he who will not see.
There is a lot of people losing jobs, homes, cars, etc., why don’t you boys go find a good cause and do something worthwhile–for a change!
Or you could try and come up with a better plan to eliminate poverty and inequality around the world, than the one which was given to Christoper found at www.wwunited.org.
Nice try Julie. If you type in the “ad nauseam” reply address you gave… the only page that comes up says this:
Critic’s Forum
This forum for critical questions from those who may find fault with this work.
Sorry, only registered users may read this forum.
So tell me Julie.. Why would one have to register to see the answers to the critical questions? Why don’t you do us a favor and just print it here so all can see.
The so-called “Law of Witnesses” is appropriately believed and adhered to as an esoteric proclaimed law, and is confined exclusively to two main religious groups: The Ancient House of Israel (the Jews—the first) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons—the last). These two groups have taken more stock in this conceptual law than any other religion on earth. There is a very good reason for this: Each of these religions “mirrors” the other in ALL things.
Each founder of these religious movements was called by God, anciently and modernly, as a prophet, and instructed to give the members of his church the “Higher Laws” of God, which both groups subsequently rejected. Therefore, each was instructed to give the people a “Lower Law” of sacrifices, ordinances, endowments, Sabbaths, assemblies, higher and lower priesthoods, baptisms, laws, precepts, and doctrines, etc., that the people could accept and live by that would point them in the general direction of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, these “Lower Laws” would point them towards the “Higher Law,” which is the law of the gospel that Jesus Christ taught.
In The First Vision given to Joseph Smith (the modern prophet) as a young man, Jehovah specifically compares the two prophets in no uncertain terms:
Quote:
28 And thou shalt lead those that listen to thy words like my servant Moses led those of the house of Israel, and give unto them my words as thou receivest through me, like unto Moses and Aaron. But the Gentiles shall reject thee, as did the Israelites the law that Moses brought down unto them, that they might have known me and the Father who sent me unto them.
29 And thou shalt be commanded to give unto them a lower law of ordinances and sacrifice like unto those which Moses gave unto the rebellious house of Israel, who would not hear my words from my own mouth, but wanted that they be given unto them through Moses.
30 And when they rejected me and trusted more in the arm of the flesh than they did in me, I took the plainness of my gospel from among them and allowed them to be led according to their own desires, which were unrighteous before God. And they did stumble exceedingly because of their wickedness.
31 And the fullness of my gospel was among them, but they did not understand it, trusting more in their fleshly ordinances and the sacrifices that pointed them towards this gospel.
After the two different religious groups had rejected the fullness of the gospel (Higher Laws), they were persecuted, hated, hunted, and led into captivity by the nations of the world. Each group finally found a place (Jerusalem, anciently/Salt Lake City, modernly) where they could build a temple to their god (it took 40-plus years in each case) and be led in doctrine and precept by their worldly priests, prophets, seers, General Authorities, scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees, being protected by the Roman and United States governments respectively.
These two groups corrupted the “Lower Laws” for many years and “strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image in the likeness of the world.” (D&C 1:15–16) In time, a lowly member of each of these churches was prepared to come forth, leave these churches, be seen as an apostate, be given the power and authority to confound the doctrines and precepts of men that crept into these churches, and give the “light” of the TRUE gospel in its fullness by instituting the work of the Father in each of their respective time periods. One was fittingly named by his parents, Joshua—he who took the Israelites into the land of promise when Moses could not (loosely translated incorrectly as Jesus)—who became known as the Christ (the anointed one); the other was appropriately named by his earthly parents: Christopher, or in other words, A Bearer of Christ.
Jehovah further reveals to Joseph Smith in The First Vision:
Quote:
35 And then shall the Father put forth His hand for the last time upon the earth and begin to gather the wheat from among the tares, and cause the tares that they shall be bundled together, and the wheat shall be gathered into the barn where it shall be safe from the fire which shall soon come to consume this world, destroying the churches and doctrines of them who teach falsehoods and lead the children of men away from the Father.
36 And when the work of the Father commenceth upon this earth, then shall the light of my gospel once again shine forth its light that those who shall see it might follow it into the barn of the Lord, where they shall be safe.
37 And there shall be one like unto you, who shall be the last, who shall be called forth to give unto the Gentiles the fullness of my gospel as I gave it unto the Jews.
38 And he shall not be like unto Moses, but he shall be like unto me, having my countenance upon him for the sake of the work of the Father.
39 And he shall do that which I have done, and preach against the religions of men and their doctrines, calling upon all men to repent and come unto me and be saved.
40 And there shall be many that shall receive the words that he shall give unto them which have been prepared to come forth in their fullness. And these words shall come forth from thy own works, which shall be given unto thee in mine own time, as thou shalt be prepared.
41 And his work shall testify of thy work, and thy words shall testify of his words, giving unto the children of men the testimony of two, that the fullness of my gospel might come forth to prepare the world for my coming.
The above has been given to reiterate the fact that the Jews and the Mormons are those who give pious credence to the so-called “Law of Witnesses,” and unfortunately do not understand this law and why it was given in the first place. Both had the chance to live the higher law of the gospel, but were given instead (because of their inability to live these higher laws) a law of symbolic ordinances and hidden understandings. Further, all of the above has been given so that it might be known and understood that he who is about to explain it to them in plainness is following in the footsteps of his friend and protégé, Jesus Christ, whose name he bears.
The law is first mentioned in Deuteronomy 17:
Quote:
1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.
2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.
Wow! The God of the Old Testament sure seems to be an austere God, who is arrogant and prideful and doesn’t want ANYONE worshipping or thinking about ANYTHING but Him, right? Wrong!
Moses taught the people allegorically and symbolically. He did NOT command the people to literally carry out the things that are written in the Old Testament. In fact, Moses didn’t write ONE WORD of the Old Testament—NOT ONE! ALL the Old Testament books that are credited to Moses refer to Moses in the third person. Why? Because they weren’t written by him. These books were written by unwise and foolish leaders around the time that King Solomon took the reigns of the Israelite nation and set his scribes to task to consolidate all the rumors, speculations, myths, and stories that had been passed down verbally from generation to generation. This same thing took place at the time of the council of Nicea, which took the Christian “rumors, speculations, myths, and stories that had been passed down verbally from generation to generation” and formulated them into what the world now accepts as the New Testament.)
Moses, the progenitor of the Israelite nation, did not write ONE word himself and pass it down, nor did Jesus Christ, the progenitor of the Christian nation. After they were dead, many gave witness to what they “thought” they had heard them say. These “thoughts,” more often than not, were NOT what was actually said or meant, but were what the leaders of the Jews and the council of Nicea WANTED THEM to say and mean, thus transforming the “rumors, speculations, myths, and stories that had been passed down verbally from generation to generation” into the current doctrines that existed in the minds of the leaders in Solomon’s time (the Old Testament authors) and the leaders in Constantine’s time (the New Testament authors).
The Israelite leaders wanted the people to be subjected to laws that were so controlling and restrictive in nature, that there was little leeway for an uprising or a rebellion against the priesthood leaders; thus they changed allegories, symbolism, ordinances, and the lower laws, into the literal “killing” of men, women, and children who failed to follow the leaders’ council and doctrine.
In the presentation of the guarded endowment given to the members of the LDS Church in their temples, there were “penalties” given that symbolically represented different ways in which “life could be taken.” In other words, the participants in the LDS endowment would act as if they were slitting their own throats, cutting out their hearts, and disemboweling themselves if they ever revealed what was given to them in the temple endowment. Was this given literally? No! But because of the foolishness of the leaders (who do not know why these things were given in the endowment in the first place), they allowed the people to believe this, keeping them in fear of speaking of the endowment outside of the esoteric circles of the LDS Church. However, there were some apostate groups that took the meaning literally, and actually cut the throats of members of their groups that rebelled against their doctrines and precepts. Finally, the LDS leaders had dealt with enough problems with the presentation of the “penalties” that they eliminated them all together from the presentation of the temple endowment.
(For a full explanation of what the penalties and ALL of the symbols of the LDS temple endowment mean, read Sacred, not Secret—the Official Guide in Understanding the LDS Temple Endowment.)
Because of the LDS leaders’ lack of knowledge and true revelation, they had no idea what they were doing when they eliminated such a vital part of the presentation of the endowment to the people. Had they the inspiration and proper understanding of the “penalties,” they would have realized that they were purely symbolic in nature and given to teach a beautiful concept of truth in the overall plan that the Father has established for His children upon this earth.
___________________
What does all of this have to do with the Law of Witnesses?
Deuteronomy 17 is “gravely” misunderstood, just as the modern LDS endowment “penalties” are “grossly” misunderstood. Their TRUE meaning brings to light the gospel teachings that are necessary for a person’s eternal salvation.
Let’s put it plainly now, so that ALL, even the least among us, can understand:
Quote:
1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.
If ya don’t go ahead an’ follow the Father’s plan in its fullness, i.e., if ya aint gonna love another as you’d have ‘em love ya, it’s perty much an “abomination” in the eyes of God and will keep ya from having the opportunity to live with others on an eternal planet with an eternal body because yer gonna cause problems there.
Quote:
2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Again, if ya aint gonna love yer neighbor as yerself, ya aint ready to live in a society of kin forever; therefore, y’all, yur gonna suffer the second death by not being allowed to be resurrected into an eternal body. That’s why ya take yur kin to the “gates” (symbolic of not let ‘em enter into the great city, which is the kingdom of God) and ya keep ‘em away from eternal life, which is perty darn much like getin’ stoned ‘til ya die.
Quote:
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Y’all been given two or three witnesses of whatcha have to do to enter the gate: prophets tell ya, God tells ya through the Holy Ghost, and even Jesus Christ himself came down and taught ya everathin’ ya need ta know. Dats why yur gonna get kept out of the gate and “die;” ‘cause ya went again’ any two of the three witnesses that yer given to get through the gate.
IF ya just hear it from a prophet, that don’t mean nothin’ unless the Holy Ghost goes on ahead and confirms it to yer soul. If ya hear it in yer head and think it’s the Holy Ghost, but it isn’t confirmed by the words of the prophets, then don’t believe it, cause yer speaking hogwash to yourself. Even if ya hear it from the Great Granddaddy of us all, ya still have ta take it to heart, believe it through the spirit nature that ya all are, and accept both of these witnesses, not one, mind ya, but two, before ya can be let in through the pearly gates.
Quote:
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.
And once yer condemned cause ya didn’t accept anything you were taught, and ya weren’t nice to others as ya wanted them to be nice to ya all, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are gonna have their way with ya; and then the rest of us, yer dear kin, are gonna realize that the Three Witnesses have gone and done ya right, because we don’t want ya around us treating us like dirt forever.
___________________
A wonderful Baptist lady who received and gained a strong testimony of The Sealed Portion before she knew anything about Mormonism of the LDS Church (therefore, knew nothing of the Jewish or the Mormon “Law of Witnesses”), posted a question on an Internet discussion group asking for guidance. Of course, an LDS member answered her (incorrectly, but still answered her) in an attempt to enlighten her on the subject:
The LDS man mentions the following scripture and the lady responds below:
LDS-Carl writes: “2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
(My words: Yep, that ol’ feller Paul, he sure had a way with the words of Moses. I guess he didn’t quite understand they aint Moses’ words. Maybe that’s why he and Peter, James, and John didn’t take a liken to each other most of the time; ‘cause Peter, James, and John REALLY knew Christ in the flesh, and Paul was still hangin’ on to the doctrine that the council of Nicea thought was the “good ol’ wine.” Just maybe, I’m a hankerin’ here, that’s why they included more of Paul’s words in their New Testament than they did anybody else’s! smiling smiley)
Then Ms. Baptist does a little confounding of her own on LDS-Carl’s incorrect understanding:
Quote:
Thanks Carl. …I saw the scripture you mentioned, but that surely can’t be a “Law of witnesses” not if you take it in context. …I haven’t looked yet in the Mormon one, but if this is the scripture that person is referring to (that wanted proof that Chris received the gold plates), I think it’s taken out of context. I also know the one in the OT, about putting people to death without witnesses, but that too would be taking it out of context, imo. How many times have we been told that you cannot just grab a verse out of the bible and apply it to whatever you desire, because it would have different meanings?
(Email correspondence, May 27, 2005.)
In the Book of Mormon, Nephi sees that the old law is reestablished to some degree to testify of the record that he and his father were preparing for the latter days:
Quote:
2 Nephi 27
12 Wherefore, at that day when the book (the plates) shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book (the plates) shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.
13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead.
Here Nephi specifically states that ONLY three shall be given the privilege to testify to the world of the gold plates. These plates include the sealed portion, as the “book” that Nephi was referring to is all of the plates prepared by Mormon and Moroni. “None other” shall see the plates except for the “few” other witnesses to which the Lord commanded Joseph Smith to show the plates.
D&C 5:10–15 reiterates precisely of what Nephi prophecies in his writings:
Quote:
10 But this generation shall have my word through you;
11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.
12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them.
13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;
14 And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness—clear as the moon and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.
15 And the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth of my word.
In Ether, chapter 5, Moroni gives further testimony and explanation of the “three witnesses” of the plates:
Quote:
2 And behold, ye may be privileged that ye may show the plates unto those who shall assist to bring forth this work;
3 And unto three shall they be shown by the power of God; wherefore they shall know of a surety that these things are true.
4 And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established; and the testimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost bear record — and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day.
In the book of Ether, Moroni is referring to the entire set of “plates,” which included the sealed portion that he had already written before he wrote his final words and placed them upon the words of his father, Mormon, which “final words” were included in the “unsealed” portion of the plates. He makes it perfectly clear that there will only be “three” witnesses who will be commanded to give their testimony by having Moroni appear to them and show them the plates. Having Moroni show the plates was important, because it proved to Oliver, David, and Martin that Joseph Smith did not make the plates with his own hands, as one might claim if Joseph Smith or I would have shown the plates to another without a heavenly manifestation of an resurrected Being.
Moroni goes on to further state the importance of receiving a testimony from the source of all truth—the Holy Ghost.
Many will mock The Sealed Portion, which will come to the world from my hands, because they will demand that there be witnesses. I am not sure what part of “None other” and “the testimony of three” they do not understand. Nevertheless, there have been those who have seen the plates in my possession, but they are not commanded, as were the “three” and the other “eight” to give their testimony to the world. IF they do, that is their own doing, but they have already been told that their persecutions will increase considerably, and their lives would be in danger as mine will be. No commandment keeps them from telling the world what they have seen, only prudence and common sense.
Yet, it should be clear to a reasonably intelligent person, that even if one saw the plates, it would not necessarily mean that he or she would believe the translation of them. This testimony can only come from the Spirit as a person reads the translation.
All of the “special witnesses” turned against Joseph Smith eventually and became his bitter enemies. I have enough enemies without adding to them because some “unbeliever” doesn’t have the humility or won’t take the time to read the translation of The Sealed Portion (that I have been commanded to give to the world) and gain a testimony of it from God.
They will know in due time, when the Lord presents the plates to the world, flanked by the brother of Jared, Mormon, Moroni, Joseph, and myself to bear witness to the world of what we were commanded to do.
If a person wants “three witnesses” of this work, then he or she should ask the Father (that’s one) in the name of Jesus Christ (that’s two) if these things are true, and the truth of these things will be given through the power of the Holy Ghost (that’s three). No other witnesses will be given to please the itching ears and wicked hearts of men.
C.
(as in Christopher)
Julie,
Was that really Christopher Mark Nemelka writing that last post?
Or were you touched like No Balls to write for CMN too?
I am just tingling to think CMN takes a leave of absence from his groupies to come sickle fight with Richard and maybe me too?
Chris Hoola
Getterdone,
Yes.. this was written by CMN.. but it was copied and pasted into this venue. He obviously wrote it at some point but you can tell by the style of writing that he is not speaking to anyone in particular… least of all as an answer in this forum. This was a “general” answer.
If he were posting it directly here.. you would have seen the “uglier” side of him come out.
Do you all have your own forum somewhere (instead of just responding back and forth on this blog)? I may be able to share quite a few interesting points about things I have learned (and been burnt by) in my association with CMN and his group.
Bill, Bill, Bill Witt, now revealing your true colors here…
Oh, how I LOVE being proved right!!!
Be sure and hook up with Harry Dschakk and JJ Dewey (aka Richard).
You can share all your “the world(and CMN)-done-me-wrong” sob stories, criticize, conspire, judge, and disparage everyone on your own website called…
Judas’ Juggernauts
Happy trails to you!!
From one of the “worst people”.
PS. I have NEVER received a NICER compliment!!
She is as loony as ever in my mind. She just can’t get it through her “real truth” head that I am NOT.. NOT NOT JJ Dewey. She can think it, wish it, imagine it, and proclaim it.. but the true reality is… I am not JJ.
Judas’s Juggernauts? Who is being compared to Judas as a traitor of the Christ? Even after Judas betrayed the Christ.. he was so remorseful and sickened by what he had done.. that he committed suicide. Or are we going to find out that there was no Judas either? No Moses.. no Judas.. hey.. maybe no Christ either?
What’s next?
And welcome, Bill, be forewarned that Add my witness - Julie Taggert is juggling alot here, give her time to tie you up in confusion - it will come - trust.
Julie,
Come on Julie was it CMN writing in your posting or not????
I want to ask if you would, please consider this request….. Please when you quote the The Sealed Portion would you add: TSP - then book - then chapter - then verse (or page number) - so I can find them in context in the TSP
Did you get your confirmation from CMN’s test with his re-mixer of Matthew, I mean you posted during the test, did you just not care or what?
And did I understand that Joseph and CMN met up, so if Joseph says he can’t leave Arizona did CMN go to him??
Richard,
Your post was right on the money, but it goes to show CMN’s back and forth to how he is right and EVERYONE else is wrong.
Random Observer,
After/ If CMN answers my questions, then maybe I’ll pick up a copy and read it. When I downloaded his book from his website months ago, it is write/ print protected so I have to be glued to my monitor to read it. And personally I like reading away from the glowing screen.
SO there it is, CMN answers the questions I have and I am able to dismiss the obvious disbelief in the translation he claims - then yes I would invest my full mental focus to his whole book, other wise football season is starting and way more important in comparison currently.
Maybe even the September 6th appearance of my hero in Wendover, you know I liked the name - and at one time I was in the call back list of Comcast technicians to do personal interviews. I thought it might be interesting being a cable guy, but they only get $12 to start. Tough to feed the ankle biters with that.
Chris “Half Fast” Translation, LLAME, INC. - No charge, it’s his, pre show gift
Getterdone
Getterdone, as I was asked to do by J.J. I “cut and pasted” that answer re: “the Law of Witnesses” from thesealedportion.com website.
However, it wouldn’t be the first time I was accused of posing as CMN—just ask JJ (or “Richard” as he likes to be called here).
If you want your questions answered personally by CMN then come to the seminar and take a number.
Or stay home and watch football.
“After/ If CMN answers my questions, then maybe I’ll pick up a copy and read it…SO there it is, CMN answers the questions I have and I am able to dismiss the obvious disbelief in the translation he claims - then yes I would invest my full mental focus to his whole book, other wise football season is starting and way more important in comparison currently.”
Getterdone, out of curiosity, what are the questions you have for Christopher that, if answered, you would, as you say, perhaps pick up a copy and read the sealed portion and/or invest your full mental focus to the whole book?
Regards
Random Observer, (go take a break before this one, I got on a roll again)
First, who are you?, obviously you really are not random, because why would you care? And sure, maybe it is just being curious, but like I told Julie - I will go through all my questions if she fixes the holes/ questions as they come.
And I guess that isn’t a priority to her, so my reasoning is to let as many of them out at the Pow wow as I can.
Like the first question I presented, if the sealed protion is so closely ‘linked’ to Christ, and the WUFfy site is so closely ‘linked’ to the Sealed Portion/ MWAW group and other written works then WHY not put Christ’s name on the WUFfy site. Even if the majority of the world doesn’t have a conviction in Christ then so what, give credit to where credit is due - At least be up front - if it is a good plan that will work on it own, then you should be at least be honest enough to say where and how it came about. Have enough worth to stand up for Jesus Christ, I mean unless you have chosen to stand before someone else at Judgement day?? Is CMN giving out numbers for this?
So long and short - Julie needs to step up, being that she is the PUBLIC AFFAIRS DIRECTOR - put a disclaimer on the site, change the site to show the ‘real foundation’ behind it, or just admit your just not on the same side as Jesus Christ - I’d accept any of these choices.
And since I like to stir the pot, Here you go Random Observer: Julie close your eyes….
If Advanced Beings came to earth, and had enough where abouts and inteligence to take on Human Form, or manipulate a Human Mind - i.e CMN, or were advanced enough to set all the events in motion for CMN to fall into place for being a spokes person for them - would it not be just understood that the Advanced Beings would also have an intimate knowledge of the events in the Earth’s history and future (to us anything beyond present is future,and know one knows the future beyond persons in Heaven - Jesus, God, and the HG).
So Advanced Beings would also know that their role in “affecting” the Earth’s events is foreordained to happen, they HAVE to do their part, so the future they saw will come to past.
So here is the meaty questions -
Was Joseph when he “regifted” the plates to CMN an Advanced Being?
Or was it an Advanced Being in disguise as Joseph?
Was Moroni & Mormon Advanced Beings? - it would be perceived they knew the future beyond “their presnt time.”
Was Jesus an Advanced Being?
Was God as the burning bush an Advanced Being?
Was God when he touched the stones of Jared, an Advaned Being then?
Was Budha an Advanced Being?
Was Mohammad an Advanced Being?
Is John the Revelator an Advaned Being? Are the 3 Nephites Advanced Beings? I think you can see the process here, Who is and who isn’t an Advanced Being(s)?
With that part settled out of the selectees, Who do they represent? Themselves?, Elohim?, Persons from another planet? With out making it sound like Star Wars - Are they all on the same side? (working for the same goal? or same end result with regards to the Earth’s life?)
Now that we have who and what side they are on, If CMN was chosen by one or two of the Advanced Beings belonging to one of the groups - Then how many other pesons have been chosen? Especially in the past?
Better yet, if all this is making sense still, wouldn’t you think they are persons on this Earth with a likely hood they will be chosen after CMN is done spinning his wheels - I mean it is apparent CMN is still getting older, and his work isn’t rolling forth like an unstoppable stone, and CMN hasn’t selected a sealed off portion succesion team to continue his work (like Apostles and GA, etc.)
So think for a minute CMN has gotten ‘his season/ moment’ in the Bible history (since there will be 12 persons, Jesus will spend a time with in their seasons) so if I see it right CMN is either the 6th or 9th in the sequence of chosen ones. And brighter and younger canidates are being born every day - which don’t beleive in some silly make belive Beings giving CMN some stones which don’t even match the description Joseph’s Mother described them as (you should read her Journal). So I digress,
The gist of the Questions here are - Who, When, Why, Where, and How are Advanced Beings in existance. If they have chosen so many persons in history to make “affecting” changes, why would they stop at CMN? - this provided they really exist?
And then if CMN isn’t the Moses figure meant to lead the LDS church back to Jackson County for Elohim’s temple - then someone is still out there waiting for their “Chosen Opportunity” and obviously more put together than CMN to “get this done”.
Its hard to see it, I know, but younger, brighter, faster, and with cleaner hands - these persons exist - a million fold to CMN’s best of ‘list’ members. Hey, its possible even some might have come unto him asking simple questions, and just stuck around long enough to make sure the WUFfy vessel gets far enough out to sea to make sure it is a one way ticket for them who deny Christ, and to get the simply confused ones off before it sets off.
Yes CMN does serve a purpose, even Satan gets used in his end, tricky devil tring to pull one over on Heavenly Father.
So there you have it, since CMN ‘invented’ the Advanced Being approach to being ‘Chosen’, there is a lot to be questioned. And histories brightest minds hadn’t tossed this one out there, they might of had some pretty fanciful visions and les happen to them BUT not Advanced Beings (unless CMN will go on record to say Jesus and Elohim were his Advanced Beings then Joseph qualifies too).
And with out asking to much maybe, CMN could check out the sealed plates for the Pow wow. My favorite would be CMN guessing the numbers on my dollar bills, with him using the U & T, or better who should go to Wendover and bet BIG - at least then he might get more donations coming in.
Maybe if having both stones there is to risky then bring just one, or just some paper rubbings from the sealed portion of the plates. I mean if this was all going to be done by him alone, like with ‘no other kinds of witnesses’ invloved. Why take a picture of the U & T and post it on his group site? …. Why let other people see them in the first place?….
I am widdling down my questions,got to stop, ..BUT if for some reason he kicks me out or won’t let me in or I can’t get all the good questions asked. Then I will make a thorough list and post it on a couple of sites after.
Julie,
Are you going to record the Pow wow, or do a transcript? I have some suggestions, if you want some ideas
Getterdone
Chris H. - I always thought unique when my wife and Mom had the same name, like Jesus did (even have an Elizabeth - sister too). My initals C P H - 3 16 …8 - like in John 3:16. One came to the Jews, One will come to the LDS. I came from the the Four Corners, even though I always thought it should of been Four Quarters. My past employment even had coincidental names giving clues. But you know through all of this I still am NOT Jesus, but I give all my life and soul to him - It’s more like happy to be his brother than reincarnation (like peas in a pod) My favorite was when I shook Ezra Taft Benson’s hand (in LA,CA), NOW there was some electricity - odd some one right in the same time frame, broke the hand of Christ off his staute in the visitors center….
I just want the truth to come out, more the better - and since CMN swings a ‘big sickle’ might as well get warmed up for the Big show to come. Did I meantion, I feel I was chosen to be one of the two witnesses -
My other unique insight - we live in the Great Basin of North America - its roughly heart shaped, There is Great Heart also just a tour away to see it(I have a funny History there too) ‘like a split in the mountain’. Zion is where the pure in Heart are, The winter Olympic motto - ‘light the fire within’, and my favorite - God took Enoch and his city of Zion into his bosom, and yes SLC is a Mirror image of Jeruselam. The bottom less pit - like a whole in your heart - Kennecott - and yes Rio Tinto means red river
I lived for many years on the 33.33.33 lattitude which also goes through the Sea of Galiee (Jesus concluded his work when he was 33 - and even Rolling Rock salutes 33)The List of My Life goes on and on my whole life, not silly Beings BUT REAL LIFE, I always thought how many coincidences, or synergies, or les till I should belive what I should do????
Well I think the darkest hour is ready to come, Heavenly Father just needed to have the recipe just a bit more certain before it will come out just perfect. And yes Julie when you have climbed the same mountain CMN is trying to do now, it is sometimes easy to see the things that don’t fit - or just make you see things with out any stones in my eyes
And yes pardon the spelling errors, the federal government doesn;t have spell check on these computers - I am just happy being simple liek that.
And yes anyone can have special things happen to them, just keep a personal Journal (and keep it private) and prove your desire to commit to Christ at all odds - even lossing your life for him - for there will you find a new one.
Getterdone - some of my pearls
If you believe in the LDS church, scriptures etc., then YOU believe in “Ministering angels”—the very same ones that appeared to J.Smith (upon which the LDS church was founded), as well as Lehi, Nephi, Abinadai, Samuel the Lamanite, Jonah, Paul, Alma the younger, etc., etc., and YES Christopher M. N.
They appear in EVERY instance a TRUE PROPHET OF GOD is called. That’s why you will NEVER hear of ANY PROPHET in the LDS Church (since J. Smith) EVER lay claim to a visitation from “angels”.
If you would read TSP you would know that the “Two Witnesses” (one of whom you ridiculously claim to be) is nothing more than the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which “lie dead in the streets” in their black leather [book] jackets because no one is abiding by their precepts— found in Matthew 5,6, & 7 and 3 Nephi 12,13 & 14….
…Do unto others what you would have them do unto you, LOVE your enemies, do good to those who despitefully use you and persecute you, etc., etc.
Now Getterdone…go reread all the posts you “saved” and count (since you love numbers) how many times you violated the gospel of Jesus, the Christ (found in the matthew and 3 Nephi)…
and then ask yourself…How the Heck could God call upon ME to do anything for HIM when HE said, “I cannot tolerate sin with the LEAST DEGREE of allowance”.
I’ll “prophesy” this Mr. Getterdone–Chris Hampton, if you don’t FIRST read “The Sealed Portion–the Final Testament of Jesus Christ” (like Moroni said 10:4) and still insist on speaking up –you will go slinking away from that Seminar like a dog with your tail between your legs embarrassed and laid bare before the “world”.
I know Christopher will have compassion on you because of your mental instability (and because of who HE IS) but I surely would not want to be you in the presence of the ONE TRULY CALLED AND CHOSEN.
But hey, be sure and bring all your family and friends…you can take their number and have even more time to expose yourself for who you REALLY ARE!!
I shouldn’t think the rest of you—believers or not— would want to miss that show (down)!!
Julie,
Since your itchy little finger couldn’t wait for Random Observer to respond I guess I will give you my rebuttal:
There is a difference from Ministering Angels and Advanced Beings, for angels are servants of Gods or those who reach celestial glory hence Moroni was an angel he served Heavenly Father - Heavenly Father being an ‘Advanced Being’ - somebody with complete knowledge of the earth forwards and backwards.
CMN fanciful reinterpretation of Revelations is about as good as the Sears catalogue when it first came out because it was a step up corn cobs. With out having Sealed the deal on his first fictional work it is pretty far fetched I would even consider it other than a ‘wiping method’. You wait and see, Julie if two witnesses were clearly seen then there will be two witnesses clearly seen by the world - it just doesn’t happen because CMN makes up another ending!!! I thought John was talking to CMN, he is agreeing to this???
Be- care-full Julie if I wasn’t aloud to speak, who then would - do you really think CMN would just dance right in without no one noticing, That is where I said it was easy to see him coming up the same mountain I had already climbed. You think really, I mean really really CMN was that special - if it was meant to be, then surely he would of been forewarned of the opposition of trying to reroute the future.
You want to know the answer to your question, how with out sin can anything be done???? Where you think Satan get his focus from….. If Heavenly Father wants you tried to your wits end, do you think he is going to make you deaf, dumb, and blind??? No he is going to give you your free agency, you are Human do what your level of knowledge permits you to do. Now if I was an Apostle there is another story, and better yet if I was a Prophet - there are levels to your adherence to his ‘higher laws’ - the more you know the more is expected of you. My knowledge is what is in MY LIFE not what fanciful glowing beings have told me - this is me - and no one else. SO there it is, until I get rerouted or reprimanded then I will pursue a course to use the same vocabulary and grammar as my opponent - CMN.
And why don’t you prophesy up some refreshments there at the Pow wow, I mean Sizzler is cool and all but how much could you really bear of the ‘chosen aura’ - I mean even the close ones have been ‘cut’ so many times how could they not expect a personal slap down with his M.O - I bet he is fun with a couple of drinks in him though, Is he going to drink any at Sizzler??? I might want to join in that adventure!!!
And compassion smassion, all I want is a straight answer in Today’s Real Current Reality - not his book nonsense, not his semantics of Advanced Beings, I want just his SL Weekly kind of answers - just raw and himself.
And as far as my family, I already told you Julie - they are in my heart and I will keep them out of this, as best as I can. If they want to see ‘The Greatest Marvelous Work and Wonder Show on Earth’ then I will bring them to the circus to see the ring leader - CMN (you know his birthday is the same as Charles Ringling!)
I really sometimes get tired with your nonsense Julie, if you want to speak for CMN or quote him or be in the same boat as him - then stick with it, quit going back and forth, you are going to wear out the hinges. You tout your position like you have a grip on the sickle, with your presented knowledge yet, you don’t answer or fix the holes. Maybe it is part of the job position qualifications? What was your score on the Test?
And for me, Who I really am, I posted a lot in my last post - you think it is fake then you in for a BIG surprise. I am not there to tout my story, I am there to ask my questions, if CMN wants a show down then I have a lot more than just questions to bring with me - So Miss Public Affairs Director do you want to make this about me and him, or do you want to tone down your britches and let me ask my questions?
If you want a show down, it would be semi-appropriate to at least give notice so I can gather some “collateral” damage together to be present, there is alot to pick through in CMN history - even if he thinks, this is all about the Sealed Portion - it is amazing what past ‘close’ acquaintances have to say about his ‘Story’.
But really Julie do you want to have the meeting I wanted to have a long time ago, that you backed out of or do you want to let CMN have his Pow wow for his supporters. I am planning to wait my turn, like everyone else and be respectful - If he wants more excitement - then say so, I can really bring this to a higher level - you just need to be specific (email me on the side, I could even dress up as Dark Vader or something or bring anti-smiley face ballons)
Tough choice here Julie, but really how many ex friends in CMN’s life wouldn’t want to see him squirm, and put together a new way out of Human Reality??
So there it is Julie, go back to you flock, get your peps ready. And don’t answer out of turn. Don’t forget birthdays???
Its not Hampton, I like Hasselhoff now. And some internet predator hunting, on the side.
Getterdone
And for the record, when the world finally wakes up from the veil of deception and sides get drawn with a mark or without a mark.
There still will be a split in the mountain…. Keep in mind there is a different entrance and exit, a process in effect….. so much CMN wouldn’t understand. So many back up plans, but I so want this cleaned up out of my backyard and wrapped up in Old Jerusalem - lots things need to happen there too
Because your ‘mind’s real estate’ and the ‘processes you commit to’ or my favorite the ’status of your streamer’ - which is like unto your antenna to Heaven’s connection. All of these will be elements of Real Reality - not a book, not a philosophy, just how your life on earth gets categorized when looked at in summary of a person’s choices.
I sort of chuckled with CMN’s CD theory of your recorded experiences, trust me direct connect is and always has been how those in communication with Heaven get things back and forth, and you don’t have to see Beings or use special stones to know this - for even Joseph once he learned to use the spirit (Holy Ghost) he used the U&T very little. You wonder why person’s haven’t been seen from Heaven visiting LDS headquarters after him - if the connection is in good working order - Why waste ‘gas’?
Why and how do you think, your eyes are like windows into your souls or windows from heaven - If you are a participating temple (vessel) - you become an instrument in Heaven’s hands - even a witness to the things ‘hidden from view’ (secret combinations). You think there wouldn’t be extra features built into our human bodies? It will take years for science and medicine to fully understand. But current reality is 2 persons acting as witnesses for Heaven, they would be unstoppable as the Bible says, for Heaven could protect them and guide them from all things sent to stop them (and then give it back to the attackers).
My biggest fear for you Julie, is how you are going to say this MWAW invented by CMN is more important than your 4 kids, who probably could use a full time mom! If there was a line or persons knocking down the doors to be part of CMN’s MWAW or to be on WUFfy’s vessel, maybe you could say it was the fame.
My insights I like to give away especially in testimony meeting, you would be surprised how some of the more subtle tests really show your worth to Heavenly Father.
Chris Handyman - a carpenter by nature
Getterdone
I have EIGHT children and my “baby” is 22 years old!!
I can see why your wifey and family refuse to appear at your side at that meeting!!
Like I said……………………………
Julie,
What kind of silly information is that, I mean are you getting the Senior discount at the Library and Sizzler???
And after you ditched out on your husband, how many of your kids support your ‘work’? How many sealed presents have become white elephants - or comparable to the Sears catalogue when something needs wiped?
And like you seem not to understand, its not like they refuse, my extended family think CMN is clown in his circus, and my wife and two daughters have better things to do. You have to realize this is like a hobby to me, like picking up garbage or being a good Samaritan or helping out the needy or donating time for red cross or DOING ANTHING TO CLEAN UP MY WORLD, that someday my daughters will have to deal with (3 yrs ans 2 yrs) and I am born in 75 - Younger brighter faster cleaner hands - when are you going to catch on.
Drink some Ensure the Big day, it will help you stay awake. Granny share some with the ponytail prophet he might need some more pep.
What are your measurements, do you color your hair?
Can I prophesy some about you Julie??? - Try this on - For every child of yours that ‘disowns’ you because of your choice to embrace CMN over your family - You will spend their lives and their kids lives in eternity trying to make up for it - this is part of ‘hell’ of the mind you will be faced with trying to help them with out you having a body. 8 kids times their kids until you ‘right the wrong’, is a dreary way to spend eternity trying to make amends. You might someday before you past, see why it is so amazing to be sealed to your family, you all become a “family tree” part in the ground giving strength and foundation to the branches and fruit in the portion above - and eventually they will be part of the ‘larger’ tree of life which brings you back to be with them in the millennium.
Getterdone
“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. And the fruit of a good tree bringeth froth the fruits of the spirit, which cause a man to love one another and do unto another that which he would have done unto him. And an evil tree causeth a man to set himself above another, and hate another, and causeth strife and contention, and all things contrary to the spirit of God.”
“For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter watter; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil. Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and do do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually…For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil”
As far as I see it, whether the analogy is used as a TREE, or weather the analogy is used as WATER, the message is the same…. That which is of God, causes people to love one another. That which is “of the devil” causes strife and contention, and all things contrary to the spirit of God…. and, as the words of Moroni say, THE WAY TO JUDGE IS PLAIN.
If a member of the Church, or any church, can come forth and say to the world: “This is false. For, indeed, it is the other way around. That which is of God causeth a man to hate one another, and causeth a man to set himself above another, to cause contention, strife, and all things that are good and of God,” then surely that is their God given right to hold such a belief, and declare such a thing, and claim it to be good, and of their god. But how then shall Moroni’s words, or Christ’s words, be proven false by those who would proclaim them as true?
For….”If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar”
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Or, if a member of the Church, or any church, can come forth and say to the world “This is false. For, indeed, pure religion is something else. It is NOT to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction. This is not what the real pure religion is, but rather, some other thing,” then, again, that is their God given right to disagree, and define in their hearts, pure religion, as some other thing.
What then IS Pure Love?
What then IS Pure religion?
What then, is ANTI-Christ?
That which leads to loving one another, even as Jesus would…?
or..
That which leads to contention and disharmony…?
Therefore,
To prove Christopher Marc Nemelka and “his” “work” false, then, here it is for all the religious world.
Simply demonstrate that YOUR faith can cause MORE harmony in the human world. Lead people to MORE good, more love, more understanding, more compassion, more light, more empathy.
Bring forth TWO things
Your definition of Pure Love
Your definition of Pure Religion
Then tell us all…
With what type of Love should we fill our hearts…
And what type of religion should we practice…
If yours is the voice of Christ….your worlds shall ring true… Love others, even as I have loved you. Find the flaw in pure love, and find the flaw in pure religion, and supplant it with a greater love than pure love, and a religion more pure then pure religion.
Of all the religious experts in the entire world, are there ANY, even ONE, who would come forth to contend with such a pure love? If so, what shall be the love they possess that is greater than pure love? Then may whoever posses such a love let that love shine out, like a city set on a hill, full of peace, and the pure fruits of the spirit. Then you will surely have something that those who are searching for “righteousness” will be drawn to. Then we shall truly find a fountain that brings forth good living water, and not a fountain of bitter, dead water of a great lake of salt.
This is why, as far as the “Christian” world is concerned, ANY contempt, ridicule, or unkind things said to or about Christopher, in an attempt to discredit him or the work brought about through his efforts, shall only backfire. You cannot fight love with hate. Trying to fight love with hate, is like trying to fight fire with wood. You will only demonstrate that you have not pure love, but the spirit of contention. And if you have not love then how shall you know the mind or will of Christ? And if you not have the mind of will of Christ, then how shall we follow you in his stead? How then could such a person tell Christ how he should conduct his own work, and that his sheep should follow some other voice?
IF a person feels they are more rightfully called to “feed the sheep” of these later days than Christopher, and his efforts in presenting to the world the Sealed Portion, The Worldwide United Foundation, and the other books available through the work that he is such a stumbling block to :-), or if a person feels they can expose him as somehow an emissary of that which is NOT good, then surely they should have their shot.
But there is only ONE way to prove you have the “real Pure religion” and the “real pure love” and that, therefore, Christopher and his work is “false,” that Christopher “hath not charity” and is “nothing”…
that is to love him, love him so much that you would die before fighting, or holding him in contempt as an enemy. If you feel that he doesn’t love you as much as he should, then Love him MORE then he loves you.
IF you can do this, then perhaps YOUR love is more pure than his, and your wisdom therefore rooted in your peace and love for all mankind. Then shall his “treachery” be revealed. Not by you, but because of his own self demise, in comparison to your love.
But if you do NOT have this love for him, and all mankind in your heart, then what kind of love have you in your heart? If you would seek to be a disciple of Christ and live, or indeed even die, as a witness to him, his life, and his message, how then shall men know that ye are his disciple? Through your love one for another or though your hatred and contempt? Though your fire, or though your wood? Therefore, what shall your example say of him whose love was so pure that he gave his life rather then fight back?
This is why, in my estimation of what is good, of what is true, the ultimate message of Christ can be no other thing but to love others even as he loved them, and the ultimate standard by which all righteousness is measured is therefore the royal law of doing unto others as you would have done to you. That if you want to truly follow Christ, then fill your heart with the purest love there is, completely and fully immerse/wash/clean/purify/baptize yourself and heart in and with this “water of life,” fully immerse yourself in this “love,” in this “way” of treating others, and love Christopher Marc Nemelka, and ALL mankind (and woman kind :-)) even as you would love yourself. If you want to prove to the world that YOU, yourself, are not Anti-Christ, then love everyone, do good to all.
For how else can one become “one” with Christ if not through loving as he loved? Shall a man become one with Christ while he has contempt for a brother still in his heart? Then how could his servant, or one claiming to be, hold any man in contempt? How then could a man know anything of God and his ways unless he knows love for all mankind? For, is it not written that “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar”?
Therefore…If a man say, I love God, by loving my brother… that man speaks true. For is it not written in the scriptures that “inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto me”? And “when ye are in the service of your fellow being ye are only in the service of your god”?
Therefore, we can reasonably conclude…
When ye are in the service of hating and disparaging a brother, ye are only in the service of hating and disparaging your god. But when ye are in the service of loving and respecting your brother, and being kind, and doing good unto him, and turning unto him the other cheek, and forgiving him, showing that your love for him is greater then the vendetta of vengeance he feels he has against you, ye are only in the service of loving and serving your god.
For….
By their fruits (of the spirit perhaps) ye shall know them.
Does it lead to love, or contention? And the way to judge is plain…that which is good leads men to loving others even as Christ would. And if there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ amen
And now, for the closing hymn
As I have loved you
love one another
This new commandment
love one another
By this shall men know
Ye are my disciples
If ye have love one to another
And getterdone, if you want to correspond with me personally you or anyone in the Internet world for that matter can feel free email me at this address–
antinephilehiquaker@gmail.com
But, in all complete honesty, I’m just some random person. Or as my great grandpa as quoted by my grandma in quoting the people of the south, used to say, “And that am the truth and that am the gospel.”
“For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.”
So how about it KC,
If the focus of the buzz of this portion of your website, was being copy and pasted to the “The Sealed Portion” group website on Yahoo. Would you speak up????
I could imagine that any interaction builds “internet paths” that which search engines delight in finding, I was even surprised to find my screen name in 3rd place on Google’s results to your site.
But here is the stumper, if your site contemplates the value of the Book of Mormon openly - yet I would think is still obvious scepticism of the Nemelka Sealed Portion version - if they were plagiarizing your site to theirs as the “added internet buzz or comments” which could be implied to support their claims - wouldn’t you say ENOUGH.
I could careless if you side with them, I could careless if you are adamantly against them - if I see your link or info on there website I see things in a whole new light. Now if ongoing and constant “C & P”’s (copy and pastes) are occurring wouldn’t and shouldn’t you say something? Especially if their PUBLIC RELATIONS DIRECTOR - JULIE TAGGERT is doing it - it may not be their sheriff doing it but it is one of his deputies.
So KC, I might be just a whim, I might be here for a long duration (not meaning your site but the fight for real truth) so what to do……. just for evidence here is the page repasted to your site:
JULIE TAGGARTS POSTING ON SEALED PORTIONS GROUP SITE - Julie’s email….”
I lifted this off another website but thought it was profound and beautiful and should be posted here…
“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. And the fruit of a good tree bringeth froth the fruits of the spirit, which cause a man to love one another and do unto another that which he would have done unto him. And an evil tree causeth a man to set himself above another, and hate another, and causeth strife and contention, and all things contrary to the spirit of God.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the exact post>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> except for this
Dear Random Observer,
I just “happened upon” your WORD this a.m. on loving our brother. It is “scripture” unto me.
How can I possess this love of which you speak?
With great respect and hope, I am …
Powered by Mind … but DESIROUS to be POWERED by LOVE ”
__._,_.___
Your Call KC - you can have the Nemelka Sealed subjects having their ‘con-foundation’ here too.
But your choice does affect who and how I send people here… THIS HASN’T BEEN THE FIRST TIME SHE HAS DONE IT!
But it is obvious things are HEATING up over there, you might want to join just to get a kick now and then.
Julie most Public Affairs directors have better tactics than this, grow some new techniques and give a pair to the “dude that looks like a lady”.
Could your family gang up and give you an Intervention, with 9 in the imediate mix you might want to prepare like Ida has. Toughness never won children back, but I guess he likes it.
Getterdone
Wow.. now you have Christopher.. who believes he is Hyrum Smith re-incarnated.. been given a plot in the Smith Family Cemetery by a person who “believes” on his words.. all because of something that Joseph Smith was to have said. Here is what they say he said:
In the Carthage Jail on June 27, 1844, in the presence of Willard Richards and John Taylor, and just a few moments before Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, Joseph smiled upon his older brother Hyrum, took his hand and said, “One day it shall be you who finishes what I could not. May the Lord’s work be cut short in the righteousness of what you will do for him. I love you my brother, my friend.”
I have looked but I can not find this reference anywhere. Anyone else find it?
Oh wait.. the plot thickens.
Christopher not only believe he is the re-incarnated Hyrum Smith..
but also:
Jacob, the son of Lehi, who was Zenos (who touched the heart of Lehi),
and
John the Baptist, the fore-runner of Christ, and also the author of what became one of the world’s most troubled religions (not to his intent),
and, finally, the servant spoken of by Isaiah through whom no man could become acceptable to Christ in the latter-days but through what he presented to the world–the true gospel of Jesus Christ as Christ intended it to be understood.
They hereby, declare that this single individual referred to by Isaiah was none other than Christopher Marc Nemelka, who was foreknown by his brother in the flesh, Joseph Smith, Jr., as Hyrum Smith.
*****************************************************************
So there ya have it.
Richard,
I like your post, maybe my post will get the Sealed Deputy back over here - I think I scared her off. The following is from a old church book I found back when, I have often enjoyed reading the books from 40 years back. There was alot more they would “say” back then.
In the Book the Rise and Fall of Nauvoo by B.H. Roberts printed 1965, Chapter 26 “ In peril among false brethren”
The winter was big with events affecting the destinies of Nauvoo. During that winter were set on foot the conspiracies which culminated in the destruction of Nauvoo. ……..…skip towards end of chapter……….. At this juncture Joseph requested of his brother Hyrum to take his family and go to Cincinnati. But Hryum demurred and said, “Joseph , I can’t leave you!” Joseph turning to a number of brethren present , said: “I wish I could get Hyrum out of the way , so that he may live to avenge my blood, and I will stay with you and see it out.” But Hyrum Smith was not the kind of man to leave his brother now that the hour of his severest trial had come upon him. His noble nature revolted at the thought, and though the Spirit had doubtless whispered Joseph that his life and that of Hyrum’s would be sacrificed in the impending crisis, his pathetic words, “Joseph, I can’t leave you!” bear testimony to the nobility of the soul that uttered them, and is a witness to the strength of those bonds of love that bound him to his younger brother. Moreover, in consequence of the Prophet’s premonitions of his approaching martyrdom, he had ordained his brother Hyrum to succeed him in the presidency of the Church; and hence this consideration as well as his affectionate regard for him as a brother doubtless led him to try to get Hyrum out of harm’s way.* - word for word from page 291.
*”If Hyrum had lived he would not have stood between Joseph and the Twelve, but he would have stood for Joseph. Did Joseph ordain any man to take his place? He did. Who was it? It was Hyrum. But Hyrum fell a martyr before Joseph did.” – Brigham Young, in a speech at the October conference at Nauvoo, 1844. In Times and Seasons, Vol. v.p.683.
Word was sent to Brigham Young, then on a mission in the eastern States, to return to Nauvoo, and to communicate with the other Apostles and request them also to return to Nauvoo, as likewise all Elders, and as many of the good, faithful men as felt disposed to accompany them, to assist the Saints.
THEN WAS THE LETTER FORM GOV. FORD, THEN WAS JOSEPH AND HYRUM AND THE OTHER CITY COUNCIL MEMEBRS WERE THEN TAKEN TO CARTHAGE JAIL.
There was no secret to the sucession Jospeh wanted, however it wasn’t said or declared in the Carthage Jail. The account of the last moments of the Carthage event was given in detail in the Times and Seasons soon after the event by Elder Willard Richards under the caption TWO MINUTES IN JAIL.
In the account everything was and has been detailed down to their footsteps, bullets, blood, etc. if CMN say’s they whispered it to each other in the jail cell, at had to of happened prior to the day of their death. And like that CMN’s story gets fanciful and his sealed creation.
With so many books on the subject, nothing of the sort was even remotely discussed prior or during the event. Not even a remote imply. Now if CMN would like to try again, maybe he could be Sidney Rigdon, Gov. Ford, or Gov. Boggs reincarnated. Because even the resurrection process still had to have Christ return for this to occur – all participating LDS members knew this well, and beyond the LDS members it was anyone who believes in the Bible.
So now CMN, Has Christ been here to redeem the dead?, Has the whole world seen him?, Has the book of revelations been fulfilled? (and not your silly fiction rewrite), Has the word of Joseph been completely fulfilled? – NO.
Seems like as with the CMN Sealed Portion and now his claim to be Hyrum – he is just crafting a story which is not timed right, and more stranger than fiction than –TRUE REALITY.
I hope this answers your media search, Richard, that came up empty earlier.
Richard,
One interesting side coincidence was the pocketwatch that was shot and stopped a bullet, was stopped at 5:16.23 second.
The date CMN had his temple fairytale meeting was June - 5, 16, 1987. 23 years would be next year. Maybe his clock is going to start where the other stopped.
Now this is my find, my hidden nugget of sealed crap.
Higher, and higher, baby.
He should be flying by then.
Getterdone
Getterdone,
Just wondering if you ever heard of Bishop Koyle?
Richard,
Can’t say that I have, in locations I have attended church - Four Corners, New Mexico / San Fernando Valley, CA / Ventura County, CA / South Riverside County, CA / North of Salt Lake, UT.
Misc. wards in each area.
GD
GD,
Ah Ok. Just checking.
Not much of a post I just like the posting Number 184 - It means so much to me..lol 481
GD,
Sent you an email. Hope you got it.
Richard
Perhaps Ms. Julie finally gave up with calling Richard “JJ,” or? I have enjoyed reading you all’s comments concerning the Sealed Portion. I was especially interested when I discovered this Forum on a search. It was Bill’s comments that especially caught my attention as I began reading this Forum. KC’s summary is also well-said and hits the nail on the head.
Christopher Nemelka makes no small claims, and something tells me this is only the beginning of the controversy that may ensue, for his book has only recently been published. It is written in the Bible, “Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good” (1Thess 5:21).
It seems that, currently, there are three books claiming to be the “Sealed Portion” available. Will there be more of such books coming forth in the future? We just don’t know yet. I must say that I rather agree with “add my witness hu” in his June 19 post, that the Sealed Portion will come forth before Christ’s second coming. Just from my experience of studying the Bible, and realizing the true meaning of prophecies… It seems that nearly all of the prophecies are for the end time, before the Millennium, and my view is that the words in Ether concerning the brother of Jared are no exception.
Now if I may quote another scripture: Jeremiah 33:3, “Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things that you have not known.” I have found in my studies and pursuit in the Gospel that there are many truths which God has and is waiting for us to discover. It only takes for us to ask and use a little effort in seeking. James 4:2b.
And so whatever it is about Nemelka’s Sealed Portion, I guess… We will see if it stands the test of time. Perhaps this saying is fitting: “Whatever is true must ultimately cohere.” It is said that all prophets teach the same thing.
GD,
Remember what Julie said in comment # 170? She said:
>>>>>>If you believe in the LDS church, scriptures etc., then YOU believe in “Ministering angels”—the very same ones that appeared to J.Smith (upon which the LDS church was founded), as well as Lehi, Nephi, Abinadai, Samuel the Lamanite, Jonah, Paul, Alma the younger, etc., etc., and YES Christopher M. N.
They appear in EVERY instance a TRUE PROPHET OF GOD is called. That’s why you will NEVER hear of ANY PROPHET in the LDS Church (since J. Smith) EVER lay claim to a visitation from “angels”.
Now think about what you read the other night.
Does her statement stand up to be true?
I think not.
Just my two cents.
Richard
Richard,
I will post you on the side. The uniqueness of Julie’s persona and position keep her in world of flux, so much to swing at - you think she would be a professional batter. Tough spot being a DH for full time sponser.
The email/ attachment you sent was unique, I had heard pieces of it before but not that well put together - it read well. I will say, did I stop and rethink my position - well more than once….. but how, but how could they (persons in charge not know) if either side was knowledgeable of the other’s case - oh how it could of been different.
So the balance I will leave to a side bar.
GD
The Pow wow was good, I had 3 occasions to speak at a couple of minutes each to CMN, with everyone there listening. No shouting, no contention, just trying to make “defintions more clear”. I have no regrets going, it gave me a lot more insight. I shook his hand 3 times, had a couple of pieces of conversation but really unless he wanted to “engage”, he was a people person. So maybe next time…..
GD,
I will await your side bar comments.
Richard
Oh, GD, you had an opportunity to prove your HUMANITY, and by your SILENCE about what REALLY HAPPENED when you engaged CMN, you have ONCE AGAIN “failed” to do so (not really).
But … not to worry … be happy … for you were BORN to FAIL, as were we all; for this is ALL about proving to OUR SELF who we are and why we exist.
Yea, after your peculiar experience with CMN, you could have shown your HUMANITY to CMN, and to his friend and mine, Julie, and to the WORLD (instead of your INhumanity), by revealing to ALL what REALLY occurred during your “debate” with CMN.
You could have become as ALMA THE Y0UNGER.
Oh well … it’s all good … for you have now SHOWN your HUMANITY, now by your WORKS, not just your WORDS. And our WORKS will “condemn” us, not just our words and our thoughts. And we will wish the rocks could fall upon us, if we are not built upon the ROCK of our HUMANITY.
Yea, you were DISARMED momentarily by CMN, and you know it. You LOST the “debate.” And you know it.
For the “debate” was about your HUMANITY, compared with the HUMANITY of a TRUE MESSENGER. And ALL of us who were present (except perhaps YOU) could experience the comparison, thanks to YOU.
And that’s why the “debate” FIZZLED … because, as you say, Christopher Marc Nemelka is a “PEOPLE PERSON” … a man of GREAT HUMANITY, when matched up against your own.
And as Random Observer so POWERFULLY informed you, this is all about finding the GREATER LOVE, for where the GREATER LOVE lies, lies the GREATER TRUTH!
Oh, CMN “engaged” you all right, to your utter “defeat,” when comparing your HUMANITY to his. For this MARVELOUS WORK AND A WONDER IS ALL ABOUT BEING HUMANE. And we saw yours and his, as two fires built on separate alters, one fire (YOURS, if it could be characterized as such) consumed by the FIRE of the TRUTH, as it REALLY is.
Oh, GD, that you could have shown your HUMANITY to CMN, instead of simply shaking his hands three times. (What’s UP with THAT?)
With LOVE and RESPECT,
Your friend and servant,
PBMAH
Talk about puffed up chests!
My goodness are these people critical.
“YOU COULD HAVE BECOME ALMA THE YOUNGER”…. you could have shown your HUMANITY to CMN….. you have ONCE AGAIN “failed”…
I guess if you don’t see it their way… you be damned!
With much more LOVE and RESPECT,
Richard
When I was sitting there in the audience and CMN was “taunting” me by telling a fairly inaccurate history of what I had said or done, Did I stand up and stoop to his level - NO. When he finally got his round the bush dialogue done and finally went to the Q&A portion after lunch - Did I have to yell or make a scene - NO. Did he even answer my questions about the order of persons involved in his “religion”, especially the flow chart of how or who everyone communicates to? - still NO.
He really plays to his group following, but still I didn’t lose my cool. Sure there were alot more questions, but lets face it he is alot less of threat than I thought, after looking him eye to eye. For in each of the statements that his followers just gobble up, there are the things he isn’t saying, but for his followers they just glaze over and gobble it up. Does anyone there question how he is making his “Plan and Salvation” for his religion? This is exactly what all the prophets of old warn against, and especially what the Anti-christ will do. And yes by CMN saying we all get to “bypass” Jesus and deal with Heavenly Father directly because CMN says we are the Holy Ghost in human form - is just a whole lot of double talk. It was Jesus’ plan in the pre-mortal existence and Satan’s plan, and obcourse Heavenly Father chose Jesus. Now all of sudden CMN has a mission and plan, seems like the Anti-christ mantle is fitting him just nicely, a little power and insight and he goes right in for washing of his followers feet, his own version of soul cleansing and becoming as a “little child” for his usage. And how many times did he compare himself to Jesus, plenty. Do think there is much more to prove?
I was impressed, that I was the only one there to confront him, I was glad I stuck to my convictions and went. Sure everyone was nice but now I see PBMAH, is somehow off in his or her own world, trying to have some fun or is this an assignment?
Well PBMAH if you would be so bold, as to tell everyone who you are, it would be a good first start. If you think there was win or loss in the 2 question periods I had to ask a question to CMN then you are an idiot. Don’t forget, know it all, I had a meeting set up, but Julie said “I was acting too crazy”, did you see me act crazy there?
In fact I could have a meeting put together in less than week BUT will your fabulous leader be there? It doesn’t cost anything to do this at the library, and yes I think I could spend 4-5 hours just with the questions I have already. It could go longer depending on his slated responses, for I am looking for straight forward reality - not scripture, not sealed portion crap, not 666, not secret or sacred - just common sense answers.
He really is scooping alot into his bag - he likes to give his favorite scripture quotes but then goes right in how he was told to spell it all out so the world can understand it in Human Reality. Sounds like scripture mingled with “his take on reality” (which only qualifies him for winning the mark of the Anti-christ) For he definitely is not Christ, in fact the more he goes at his continual rants about his similarities - it just confirms what I have been saying all along. And please how much more obvious should it be that his own book, 666 dismisses all the past views or interpretations of the John’s Revelations - for this primarily where the Anti-christ is described, couldn’t of guessed that one??
And further more if the 3 Nephites or John are keen to emailing his group discussion, do you think they could write with a better foreign accent? Or maybe CMN could do a Q&A day of the week just for them? I still think it fairy tale caliber to think the 2 Nephite brothers go car pooling around the United States with CMN to get things “done”, I mean did they take Space Balls RV spaceship? Eating cucumbers no less, I think he needs to get better script writers, maybe borrow some from LOST or HEROES in their down time.
I do agree Richard, it really is tough for them to be so in tune to CMN’s teachings in his presence, then to go out of bounds to start what - an argument? Did you really need to this to get off your chest, PBHAM? Was your day in the spot light of your leader not enough? Do you have enough authority to let me come into the discussion group to really ask some questions of the CMN children? Now there would be some lessons for you.
And take your LOVE and RESPECT and shove it back up CMN’s word processor and see if you can’t get some better truth insights! And I don’t need your WTF friend and servant statements - stick to your own, and believe me, you just give the perfect example to what CMN is raising out of his new children in the new Neverland play park.
And even for Random Observer, like I said not so “random” - if he is member of the group and was there at the Pow wow, as it is written by him. Profoundly obvious there is alot more CMN is worrying about by sending out his munchkins to ensnare his opposition, and for the slim chance he doesn’t know about all the maneuvers your making, then really stupid tactics when he professes his PPP protocols - you all belong together! Maybe get some Jesus juice and have a slumber party in WUFfy headquarters.
I see CMN filling a recent King spot just nicely also. And give your capital letters a rest, they get all the use they need on your own home turf.
Chris H.
Dear Richard,
I would LOVE to COMPETE with you on the question of which of us has shown forth the GREATEST love and respect for GD. I believe I would win that “competition” against you.
Neverthess, I desire INSTEAD to show forth my love and respect for YOU, by sharing with you that I used certain scary terms in QUOTES that I would encourage you and GD would view with a grain of SALT … for my words were merely patterned after the way the CHRIST uses seemingly harsh words that are not really so harsh for a wise purpose. For it has been written that the Christ has said that “it is written eternal damnation [for example, because] it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.”
I have done the same for GD for the same reason … but in this case that it might work upon his heart for his OWN glory … for the glory of the kingdom of God that is WITHIN HIM, even getterdone … and now I will read his post and see if I can assist him in love and response in any way … if I cannot, I will not respond to his post; if I can, I will respond, but ONLY for his sake, and for the sake of those who have the potential like him to becaome as Alma the Younger of old …
MOST love and response to you, Brother Richard.
PBMAH
Well, Chris H (ah, what was your last name again, who would have me not hide behind my moniker?).
It is finished then … you have sealed your mind and heart and have brought upon yourself your own stance with respect to this Marvelous Work and a Wonder. (Oh, there are other more EXPRESS ways of saying what you have done to yourself, dear brother … but let’s leave it at that!)
And here are the words and the name-callings by which you will be “judged” at the last day …
“CMN was ‘taunting’ me”
“bush dialogue”
“For in each of the statements that his followers just gobble up, there are the things he isn’t saying, but for his followers they just glaze over and gobble it up.”
“This is exactly what all the prophets of old warn against, and especially what the Anti-christ will do.”
“just a whole lot of double talk.”
“seems like the Anti-christ mantle is fitting him just nicely”
“Do think there is much more to prove?”
“I was glad I stuck to my convictions and went.”
“now I see PBMAH, is somehow off in his or her own world, trying to have some fun or is this an assignment?”
“If you think there was win or loss in the 2 question periods I had to ask a question to CMN then you are an idiot.”
“Don’t forget, know it all …”
“I am looking for straight forward reality - not scripture, not sealed portion crap, not 666, not secret or sacred - just common sense answers.”
“Sounds like scripture mingled with “his take on reality” (which only qualifies him for winning the mark of the Anti-christ”
“And please how much more obvious should it be that his own book, 666 dismisses all the past views or interpretations of the John’s Revelations - for this primarily where the Anti-christ is described, couldn’t of guessed that one??”
“And further more if the 3 Nephites or John are keen to emailing his group discussion, do you think they could write with a better foreign accent?”
“I still think it fairy tale caliber to think the 2 Nephite brothers go car pooling around the United States with CMN to get things “done”, I mean did they take Space Balls RV spaceship?”
“Eating cucumbers no less, I think he needs to get better script writers, maybe borrow some from LOST or HEROES in their down time.”
“Did you really need to this to get off your chest, PBHAM? Was your day in the spot light of your leader not enough?”
“And take your LOVE and RESPECT and shove it back up CMN’s word processor and see if you can’t get some better truth insights!”
“And I don’t need your WTF friend and servant statements - stick to your own, and believe me, you just give the perfect example to what CMN is raising out of his new children in the new Neverland play park.”
“Profoundly obvious there is alot more CMN is worrying about by sending out his munchkins to ensnare his opposition, and for the slim chance he doesn’t know about all the maneuvers your making, then really stupid tactics when he professes his PPP protocols - you all belong together!”
“Maybe get some Jesus juice and have a slumber party in WUFfy headquarters.”
“I see CMN filling a recent King spot just nicely also.”
Have more CHARITABLE words ever been written than by this Chris H? Let the world judge. As for me, I do not judge him. He is a dear brother of mine … and he will be happy in his own kingdom some day just like the rest of us, if he will one day agree simply to do unto others as he would have them do unto him.
But alas, there does not appear to be an Alma the Younger in the making here. And I DID have hope for Chris H. It would have been Marvelous and Wonderous to have witnessed him finding his TRUE SELF.
PBMAH
Yes Thank You, Chris H, for the visual.
That is EXACTLY what “struck dumb” (Alma 30)in the presence of a True Messenger of God, or Prophet, Seer and Revelator looks, sounds and feels like.
And I repeat the question, What did you come looking for? For I didn’t search out your pathetic attempt at wisdom, nor was it by any one else prior to your posting. And your ability to cut and paste my comments is masterful, high marks on your word processor skills, too bad your skills just blend into the muck that everyone does on the MWAW site. I like the no new thread post idea, maybe CMN can get you little kids in order someday?
So what gives, you had to of forgotten all that your leader said about those “wanting” to be taught. I don’t care for CMN’s wisdom, nor yours, so unless you can get that through your brain washed mentality - I rest my case. He really doesn’t have the following I once thought he did, and it surely isn’t organized enough to do much worldly good, and I haven’t heard of one community project, one fund raiser, one attempt to practice what you preach - I think you members of CMN will be lip syncing all the way till the last day prior to judgement. I mean how many years has it been and still no notable efforts to help change anything. The one item worth noting is CMN dissolving his charitable foundation to have all control and financial duties in his name, now there is one world plan man - still like the Anti-christ though.
The front page in the Deseret News says Utah is number one in charities, may be you could submit your foundations name to be recognised next time. Maybe an advertisement saying how wonderful your group is, or how you want to change things in the world. I mean you don’t have any condensed foundational beliefs (like a list - i.e the Articles of Faith), you don’t have a physical address (or is minuteman drive the one?), you don’t believe in prayer at your meetings, you don’t give receipts on your donations to the foundation (you might want to change that first before you go public again), you didn’t even offer any free literature at your Pow wow (I would of thought real books for your friends to have would of been smart - not print locked e-books), you could of validated parking at the library too, and you could really focus on getting your own house in order before you go off spouting doctrine.
Like I also said, I have my questions still and I took pretty good notes at his Pow wow. I would be a better friend than foe, but lets face it. If CMN doesn’t want to clear things up, then fine, I will keep pointing out the short comings and false truths he comes up with and share them with everyone I meet. As far as your input save it for those on your group site, where the members can’t “kiss” enough of each others butts.
Here you just seem out to start something, and if that is what you want, then let me do it with your leader, why waste my time on you? or Julie? or Jay? If none of you have any thoughts of your own, I’d rather talk to the person responsible for filling your little childish minds.
Have your papa CMN call me when he is ready, like I said I can have the meeting anywhere, anytime but you are like little kids to me now - just doing what you can get away with before you get “cut down”. lol
Now go sit in time out and think about what you have done, until you are sorry!
Chris Hasseloften
Dear GD (for you truly are dear to me).
YOu have asked repeatedly, “What did you come looking for?”
I came looking for YOU, dear brother. To see if you were being true to your HUMANITY.
And you and your brother, Richard, let my words trip you up … for the written word is ONE-dimensional … therefore, you could not perceive the LOVE and RESPECT conveyed through the words I have written. And I used EXPRESS words, as Christ does. But they did not work upon your heart the way I HOPED. But I used them with the best INTENTIONS that they might be for YOUR SAKE.
Yes, if you met me in person, then you would know of my LOVE and RESPECT for you.
I TRULY thought that PERHAPS you would have had a CHANGE OF HEART, even like ALMA THE YOUNGER, when you met Christopher Marc Nemelka.
If I have made a mistake in coming here, it is that I misJUDGED you, but ONLY in THAT respect.
But I still think you have GREAT POTENTIAL, brother, if you would EMPOWER your MIND and your HEART, TOGETHER, as I have done.
So now I shall cease being a thorn in your side, dear brother … and I will let you be.
BUT … as I said before … you WILL one day have ETERNAL JOY and HAPPINESS in the kingdom of heaven, IF you choose to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
My only hope was to introduce you to the KINGDOM OF GOD WITHIN YOU. But … as ALMA THE YOUNGER … perhaps I did “SIN IN MY WISH.” Perhaps I should let you be. Perhaps I should not have come to you, as I have. Perhaps I did NOT do unto you as I would have you do unto me.
BUT … if YOU ever find the FULLNESS OF TRUTH, dear brother … then I ask you now …. PLEASE come to me and share it with me, as I have tried to do to you.
With the DEEPEST LOVE and RESPECT for you,
I remain,
Your friend and servant,
PBMAH
Well lets start by a return email address, and or a phone number.
I came knocking to CMN’s door more than once, but with out him violating “my free will” I want to ask my questions prior to consuming my focus into his works. I brought this up at the Pow wow, the LDS church doesn’t make it mandatory to read the Book of Mormon to get baptised or to even go to church - SO why does CMN think his is any better of a reason. That is what missionaries are for, ones that are truly called to be that, they are there to answer you questions to help you - BUT since none of his followers really have the answers I am looking for, I’ll wait for him. Its sort of a logistics problem for him, he wants the control and recognition but other than appointing some watch persons and washing every one’s feet - he has no one “truly appointed” (I think Nobody’s Business was the closest with his laying on of his hands to set him apart) but that came and went.
So even you PBHAM, if you represent him, then where are you credentials? And like my question in the Pow wow again - where is the flow chart of authority in your members? If you were there then you should know this, maybe it was covered on Sunday??
But still unless you are him, or the supposed John who wrote him, you are just a little child to me, for those were his words to have you become as little children. And I do know why Jesus said it the first time, but CMN saying it with out authority, well it sounds and seems like it is worded - Papa CMN and his holy ghost kids.
And still take your finger off the shift key, and just become an adult for a little bit and write with common sense. Leave your Capital letters alone, you think I would think more of you or put more emphasis in reading your nonsense with all the capital words - not a chance so give it up, I am still not ready to learn from you. Its your upper wisdom which seems like it only comes fresh from your leader that I am interested in, this is where my questions might get resolved.
Keep in mind when you preach from CMN’s books of “knowledge”, it really has no turning effect on a recipient’s mind or soul unless they conclude there is reasonable doubt that CMN is called of God. He has not proven this by any means in any case, in fact HIS history is such only to make you question it further. His books are that, just fiction books. His “religion” has no resemblance of organization. He is just fishing for followers. If the work was really called of Heaven, wouldn’t you think there would be brighter help coming forward, but as like me, until my questions have been resolved why in hell would I want to be a part of a seemingly sinking ship with CMN at the wheel?
Eventually even the 3 Nephites and John will get tired of the use of their names and come to exact their vengeance. I said a long time ago, that screwing with Book of Mormon history is going to piss off alot of ancestors of North and South America - wait till they have their day too. Fiction is one thing but claiming you are written into their sacred records is instant damnation for eternity.
And even in the eternal view of Heavenly Father, though we may have common DNA ancestors, unless you are working for the same Jesus/ Heavenly Father/ and Holy Ghost protocal that the LDS church worships you have a long way to make it back to being able to call me brother. And I have no need of servants, and friends with their own agendas aren’t really friends either. So stick to those who understand you like the other kids, unless you bring words direct from CMN, and info on meeting him.
Hold your peace till then, Huckleberry. You are not done with time out, so sit quitely and fold your arms.
C.M.H (I always thought it odd how close they were, yet represent so entirely different things)
POWEREDbyMINDandHEART@gmail.com
(GD, please disregard the CAPS when you write, so that you don’t get frustrated)
: )
My dearest PBMAH,
I was not in a competition with you. Before two people can compete.. one must understand what it is that they are competing to do. The fact that you created a competition after the fact.. is really no competition at all.
But if you want to say you win.. then that is fine with me.
The fact that you try to use the same tactics that the Christ used on mankind is honorable. However, he was using it on people who didn’t know better… and were far more susceptible to it. There are those that need to have the fear of hell and damnation to keep them on the right path. Then there are others that choose the right path and have made that decision for themselves.
It is the God within.. we need to pay attention to. Those words of Christ work very well on those that need and have their God without. But if we follow the Christ.. and see that he paid attention to his God within.. and that is what he has been telling us to do. We are gods.. and as soon as we start believing it.. we will start trying to act like it.
But what is amazing.. is that I often listen and communicate with my God within.. and no manner of quick talking will get me to see something which is not there. I have read the Book of Mormon and know the spirit which comes from that book. I do not feel that spirit in the least when I read anything written by Chris. I do not “see” what you see. I do not feel excited nor that he is a messenger sent from God.
But.. people have the right to be fooled and blinded. It has been happening since the beginning of time. People can choose to follow Christ.. or not… Christ allowed them their free agency. Some may just be taking the long way home. And in taking the long way.. there is more suffering, pain, and damnation that await.
Richard
Richard, your post was wonderful. It demonstrates charity and humanity better than mine did (but I agree–there is no competition).
Thank you, brother, for taking the time to post so thoughtfully. It turns out we share much thinking in common, which thing I would not have supposed (which is not to my credit). And where we differ, we can differ in love and respect for one another.
PBMAH
Chris H. please feel free to rejoin the discussion group (MWAW) and pose all your questions there. As long as you remain respectful you may stay.
Julie
I have been contemplating the Book of Mormon Geography lately. I wonder what Chris would have to say on where did it all take place? I mean.. someone who rubs shoulders so often with “the boys” should easily be able to answer that question if he indeed is the “true” messenger of God… no? What a revelation to the world that would be!
What do you care what he thinks, “Richard”? You’ve made it clear you think he is a “phony” and done everything you can do tear him and this work down.
Besides that— “geographical locations” from the Book of Mormon do NOTHING to “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, liberate the captive or bind up the wounds of the sick”.
You just don’t get it, Mr. Dewey, do you?
I’m so sorry his truth destroyed all your followers and the attention your websites got…but at least they kept you busy.
Maybe you could try to start up your own website that has NO reference to The Sealed Portion, since you don’t believe it has been translated.
WHY do you stay here?
I don’t believe you’ve picked up one devotee have you?
Julie.. you are still such a silly woman.
I have to say.. when you get something stuck in your head.. you just can’t let it go.. can you? It is like a dog with a bone.
Well.. I can tell you Julie that you answering me here.. does NOTHING to “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, liberate the captive or bind up the wounds of the sick” either.
And trust me Julie.. “his truth” has not and could not “destroyed all my followers and the attention my websites get” because I have no followers.. I have no websites that do what JJ’s sites do. I am not JJ Dewey.
I just love the way you love to make statements by asking a question.
Have you ever gotten that wedding proposal yet from Christopher? Are you really gonna be happy by being the “next” wife?
Richard.
Until you stop your same and usual tactics–name calling, condescension, and attacking the messenger–documented back to your beginnings on thesealedportionyahoodiscussiongroup (under your own name JJ Dewey) no one will ever believe you’re not him.
How do you know what “JJ’s sites do” if you’re not him!! (you give YOURSELF away every time :-))
And yes you are correct you have no followers… you are, however, a “follower” of Christophers—you follow him and his sites everywhere he goes!
If you’d read TSP (gave yourself away AGAIN, JJ) you’d know we don’t believe in polygamy–that is the LDS church started under Brigham Young that does.
Julie,
I am not really interested in going back to MWAW - a.k.a. OZ, all I wanted was to talk to the pinhead at the charge, Oz Pinhead, the wizard. (The Wizard of Oz’s real name is Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkel Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs. In short, it spelled out O.Z.P.I.N.H.E.A.D. But the Wizard didn’t like that name because it was Oz Pinhead. So, he shortened it to Oz, which he wrote on his hot air balloon when he sailed into the land of Oz.)
I spoke to him, I wasn’t deterred or scared down, I saw the smoke and mirrors, I tried asking my questions, I got really nothing out of the meeting, other than what I already had in me - just like the characters did.
Sure I have more questions or curiosities but, in CMN’s world they make sense to him and those who follow him. You HAVE to become indoctrinated to join(you have to have read the TSP, to participate. Then you have to have read the subsequent works to then really understand yourself and life). So long and short if you want to put your “free will” aside, to be required to read the books just to be able to talk to him or to join the group by all means - just do it. Who knows maybe by time you are through your tenancy there you will be handing over your wills, estates, and common sense to be dealt away with as part of the beast built by pinhead himself, still amazed it’s name comes out like a wolf.
Remember when the world really understands the concept of “Real estate of you mind” and what you take with you from your earthly experiences here, and what will do you actual good in the next stage of our development (spiritual kingdom)- I don’t see his publications really embracing what Jesus wants you to do - It is what CMN wants you to do (keep in mind Jesus is the gate keeper). I mean this is CMN’s “secret” to tell you how it really is, right - LDS temple ceremony, Bible revelations, human existence, and coming… prophet of old sayings - made sense with the Light of CMN’s moon.
SO a bigger “WOLF” filled with earthly donations will rise forth and nurse the world of her ailments. Seems, so End of times biblical to me.
I do have an idea Julie/ Jay, there is a JJ grouping, how about I buy 3 sets of your “standard” literature which you consider the best way to introduce a newcomer to your group. I found 2 other readers (professional SLC native white 45 - 65 men) that you are pretty gifted sharp thinkers, you can meet them if you want prior. And they will read the works - then report, I’ll take their “book reports” (publicly if needed) and post them here - whether good or bad. But I am not handing them print protected links to the books - them including myself want real books to underline and note. Each of the readers not to discuss the assignment till all 3 are done. One is Catholic (he is going in for a double hip replacement in 3 weeks, he will be on R&R for 2 months), the other choice is fluctuating between two last choices but one is an attorney the other is retired navy. None of these men are aware of this possible assignment, in fact I could have you tell them what is required, if you wanted. So you decide, you up for a review.
Even if not, will you at least sell me a complete set of books? Still have another idea to try out.
Side note Richard, Julie reminds me in her appearance to be comparable to Barbara Walters. Sherri Nemelka is comparable to an older Demi Moore. Just my perception though?
Christopheeris Prentise
Julie.. Julie.. Julie…
Go tell your anti-polygamy story to Christopher. Did he actually need to get a divorce from his polygamous wives?? or did he just “leave” them?
And my goodness.. does everyone who knows about freeread.com have to be JJ Dewey? LOL
Just type in his name and do a Google search and you will find his websites:
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The Writings of Joseph John (JJ) Dewey | Home Page
A gateway to the writings & discourses of novelist & spiritual teacher JJ Dewey.
www.jjwritings.com/ - Cached - Similar
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FreeRead.Com - Website Of JJ Dewey - Spiritual Teacher & Author Of …
FreeRead.Com - Home Page of Joseph John (JJ) Dewey - Spiritual Teacher & Author of The Immortal series.
www.freeread.com/ - Cached - Similar
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Excommunication of JJ Dewey from the Mormon Church
by JJ Dewey March ~22, 2002. The next step the Nephites took was to vest greater power in the authorities, thus giving them power to dictate: “Therefore …
www.greaterthings.com/JJDewey/Bio/excommunication.htm - Cached - Similar
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J.J. Dewey — Remnant Christian, Patriot, Metaphysicist
JJ Dewey synthesizes inspired wisdom from East and West. Presents ‘fictional’ dialogue with John the Revelator who was given to remain on earth until the …
www.greaterthings.com/JJDewey/ - Cached - Similar
Are you still a secret follower of JJ? You must be.. knowing what you know about him!
JJ has much more insightful things to teach than Christoper does.
Funny how the word “reality” is not found in the old or new testament even once. It is found in the Book of Mormon.. once. I would suppose that if “true reality” were so important for man to know about and understand for his salvation.. Any one of the prophets.. messengers.. angels.. disciples.. etc.. could have mentioned it in the last 4000 years.. NO? But alas.. it is the greatest secret that God has and he has with held it from man. Boy oh boy… should I feel so lucky now?
Calling you a silly girl is not name calling.. it is a description of what you are to me… a silly girl. I actually have to Laugh out Loud at some of the things you do… and say.
I ask one question and you have to come back and ask me how me asking my question has anything to do with.. how did you put it? “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, liberate the captive or bind up the wounds of the sick” ?
And yet.. here you are…. AGAIN.. taking precious time away from doing your part to “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, liberate the captive or bind up the wounds of the sick”. Really.. you should be ashamed of yourself!!
And Julie.. just because you say I am follower and say that I follow him to all his sites.. does not make your statement true. You are a very confused silly girl and we have to make certain “allotments” for you. Go in peace.
Side note to GD:
Thanks for “that” picture.
Who but JJ Dewey would advertise for JJ. Dewey!!
LOL
Julie..
Are you just putting on the “blond” act?
Who do you “advertise” for when you come here? Are you really CMN pretending to be Julie?
Pull your head out of the sandy foundation and get a “real” clue what is going on. LOL
I know of JJ. I have conversed with JJ. I have never met him face to face. I know what he does.. and what he has to say about things. I like his teachings… for I have read much of what he has written.
But as I have stated.. I am NOT JJ.
And again Julie.. you are wasting time here instead of doing what you are suppose to be doing with your free time. “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, liberate the captive or bind up the wounds of the sick”!!
Richard,
Your post on the Book of Mormon geography, has had me thinking. First the 3 Nephites and John in general have had 2000 years to mentally record all they have seen and done. Now my guess is they probably didn’t write any of it down. This I think would be contrary to Heaven’s will, so now there is the help they are to give the world while they tarry. And I use the phrase what would Jesus do? They are as close as any of us would ever get, so they would be the perfect example. And to start this line of thinking Jesus wanted the greater majority to follow him, this was his mission to help those who would listen.
So with this more perfect knowledge of the world and the secrets of it, would the greater majority not be the goal. Maybe not car pooling around with CMN in the WUFfy headquarters. If the world as we know it needs a kick in the pants to get things on the right track wouldn’t the “Fabulous Four” have resources unimaginable to our limited minds. Think about all the riches lost, secrets buried, and “keys” to bestowe on those worthy. I do believe they were given authority to many things with proper authority, for they would be truly connected to the spirit of Heaven’s will.
So with limitess power and resources they could do all that Heaven desires. So why again was CMN chosen, his past valor? his foreseen legal prowess? his stunning flowing hair? maybe it was his Cityweekly article? Hard to guess this one. I doubt it was his lack of financial desire for this was the first thing he claims to have thought about when Joseph handed him the plates, it wasn’t family sake for he had plenty of evidence to show this not to be the case, even with grandpa there. So the Fab4 still wanted him still according to CMN, surely to give such amazing stories a foundation with their names. So out of all the things the Fab4 wanted to impart to ensure their efforts to go forward they pass down some knowledge - Heaven’s gold. But leave him in the Space balls Headquarters, his RV. With still more trials than before.
In Joseph’s case, he got alot of added burden, but he was given tremendous strength and support - for this is how Heavenly Father works, and this has been a pattern in all of his works. I mean with in the first 5 years they were on their way working on building the first temple, and so on. I guess if you had to chalk up CMN’s dowelry he has a burial plot, pretty creepy, he better pray his own prophecies of having his name on it before 2012 aren’t self fulfilling - like Moses and the Pharaoh - Heavenly Father has an interesting way of making your own words come true.
And in Joseph’s time, giving the Book of Mormon was meat enough for a lot of changing that needed to occur to the whole world prior to Jesus coming, with out him laying to waste the whole of the earth.
So yes Richard, if CMN has the “key” to open the door to finish the work he should be able to have these things answered by either Heaven or the Fab4. Who ever is appointed to interact with him, if he is really chosen. Sure they may have issues with showing off the Gold Plates but if this it, I mean if this is the final chosen prophet then why wait, lets getterdone. Get your foundation a roaring, show the world line upon line of Fab4 secrets. The flood of persons would be unprecedented in history, nothing could stop that final charge. So I wonder, why the wait, why the lack of support, why the mystery in having any of the Fab4 come forward, why the non stop lip service in when they will have their first real contribution in changing anything?, if all this was to lets say start on 2012 wouldn’t you think more would be done to prepare or to do?, If all these implements were just to get the world to this point in its course they would be just that empty vessels - for their purpose was served, the knowledge was given out freely and unconditionally, the world would have one of their last witnesses (last choice before Jesus judges here on earth), even Heaven isn’t really a collector souvenirs - for all the things of this earth WILL pass away - its foretold by almost everyone. Here is CMN, staking his fame on the “Mystery of the Unknown”, with no witnesses, with no major financial growth, with no real membership booms, and with no works to support his pledges.
I think if there was a Fountain of Youth lets say I would bet the Fab4 would know it, if there was a Loch Ness Monster you bet ya they might of fed it, if there was other Alien visitors I would guess they could of hung out together maybe swapped some universal mysteries - so many things could be cleared up, it could be a MWAW search engine of truths.
The world would never be the same, everyone would see it BUT at the current rate of exposure we should be lucky if we get to why this had not happened 175 years ago when the course was so much more manageable. Still think the river freezing to leave Missouri was pretty obvious Heaven still had their hand in the LDS church’s future. The expansion of stakes, the opening of countries, the implementation of the church welfare system, the disaster relief provided, and the for certain the tempering of the saints to stick to the core values!
Could you Julie or Jay or PWHAM or other lifer of the WUFfy farm, please give me some Google Earth coordinates of the 2012 burial site??
Could I get a cost on a full set of MWAW books, I would pay extra for an autographed set!
Is Minuteman drive the actual physical location of the WUFfy/ MWAW office?
Did the foot washing fluid get thrown out??? Are there vials for wearer protection for sell?
Did the any of the Fab4 get to see the footage yet from the Pow wow??? Did they see me?
Who hair is longer Jay or CMN, it looked close to me, is there a rule not to go beyond his length yet?
See Julie I have really no desire to go back, lots of questions to post here!
Will you participate in my Book Review project of the MWAW books?
Chris Smith, senior. - I think I am a brother too
Brother GD,
The way I figure it.. To ask John the Beloved should not be that much of a problem… after all it was just within the last week or so that John sent CMN an e-mail that he shared with the group.
And I have to say that CMN is being rather selfish and not sharing John’s email address with others.
It would be rather easy for him to hit the “Reply” button and say.. Hey John.. I have a quick question for you. Just where does the Book of Mormon geography take place? I mean.. there are five theories out there.. which one is right? Not that it is important WHO is right or wrong.. but just let the “REAL TRUTH” shine forth.
Still.. we need more than just a 100 followers to jump start this global thing. Joseph Smith had more than a 100 followers within the first month after organizing the Church in 1830. (It still makes me so mad that Joseph just created the Church after finally getting the Book of Mormon published just to create a stumbling block for the people in the latter days.) I mean.. nothing like cutting off the feet of your disciples and then telling them to go forth into the world.. on crutches and wheel chairs. Suppose he wanted to play the sympathy card?
Ah shucks.. maybe it really won’t be until after the fall of the Government.. the total calamity on the earth.. some major reduction in world population.. (just kinda hard to manage billions of people) that the Lord comes back to re-establish ZION on this earth.
Book of Mormon is proof that civilizations that were once righteous and lost their way.. that God does come back to reclaim them. We as LDS as a “group” can not think that as a “group” we are righteous. The Lord has to keep saying the same things over and over and over again. As a group.. we are not getting it! Doesn’t mean that he has abandoned the Church or the network he has created in the past 175 years!
Imagine.. if you will.. one day a cave being discovered.. full of ancient artifacts that verify the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon from a physical aspect. All those who had doubted in the past.. would have to come to the realization that they were wrong.. their leaders had deceived them. And then watch how the gathering commences again.
I say.. if you don’t have all the truth before you on your plate.. live that which you do have and don’t stop searching for more. You can’t go wrong!!
J.J, they “do not satisfy men’s curiosity in that manner”. (you should know that!!)
Chris H.
TSP=$26.99
SNS=$34.99
Plus shipping and handling.
I’m sure we can gift you copies of “666 Mark of America”.
The only one Christopher will sign is the Limited Edition of “666″.
Sorry, but he says it’s not his work–it was given to him and he won’t take any credit for it by signing it.
If you’d like to know more please contact me at jlt1920@yahoo.com or join the discussion group.
Julie..
Of course they do! You know as well as I do that over 14 million people are curious about the seal portion that was not given to Joseph. And you say.. Christopher has it.
If that is true.. then they have satisfied one’s curiosity!
But if you say they don’t do that.. then Christopher’s TSP isn’t real either.
And still again sweetheart.. I am not JJ.
Your like a Bobble Head doll, Julie. Just stick to one side, don’t start new threads, use your mental wheels before you start chanting your Arise and Awake nonsense. Is that what you told your family? Did you tell the High Priest commission that on your E day (or at least in your letter). You use these catch phrases, and I think why aren’t you out on the streets of the city proclaiming your knowledge, here you just seem screwy, or hormonally imbalanced
I find the words of Richard, “And again Julie.. you are wasting time here instead of doing what you are suppose to be doing with your free time. “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, liberate the captive or bind up the wounds of the sick”!!” These are poetic to me especially when I add the following,” Awake, Arise and do what you preach!”.
Why do you think I am so amazed at your group, you know the day of the Saturday Pow wow, I took a homeless man, in with me to Burger King and bought him lunch, right there in front of all of you, but I guess you wolfing down your food you probably never noticed. I mean security did, they thought he was bothering me, sort of cleared that up when I handed him the receipt and the change. The city library area is full of persons to help, even if it is just your old clothes, a value meal, even your extra bottle of water, and change. I thought when I was walking over the street how odd, all the members of the Pow wow walked right by this man standing out front on the sidewalk - I guess just like CMN motto - or at least the one I see him pushing inadvertently - “Do what I say, not as I have done!” Such a peculiar group indeed.
So to answer your posts, other than my questions to be answered, I have only asked for an autograph, and my meeting confirmation - and neither of these would be so much of a demand if CMN was being prompted by Heavenly Father - he really isn’t getting the same downloads(revelation) I receive. So if the king of the WUFfy mobile packed with his little kids can’t make a pit stop then tell him to not to worry his little head, babysitting is tough work especially when they have voices in their heads arguing with them????
So the bargain price of $60 and S&H for two slices of sealed history, I will start recycling my cans and bottles now so I can maybe get reading / working on them before Halloween. I found humor in using my recycled old refuse to purchased someone else’s refuse they recycled too. And for the record crap attracts more flies than Honey and vinegar, and like CMN’s site it shows they get stuck in there too.
So I think often, what would happen if no one existed to confront the “Heaven’s wonder of CMN’s sealed subjects”, lets use our imagination a bit….
Do you think the lines to see or hear him would marvel the world? Didn’t happen at the Pow wow, maybe bad Public notice?
Do you think the websites would crash daily from over visiting and downloads? Maybe a counter would be good.
Maybe the WUFfy foundation, would of made it in the Deseret News under notable Utah charities? But CMN would have to put the foundation back out from under his sole personal control, back to public view.
Maybe proselyting literature would be free to all seeking the truth? ($60 is pricy truth)
Maybe the membership number of past months at the yahoo site would actually be a representation of the group name?
Maybe forming some local charity drives would at least get the homeless in WUFfy t-shirts, I mean cheap advertising right???
Maybe printable online books would be less selfish of Heaven’s glory, I mean it is Heaven’s right?
Maybe a site based on prayerful topics, and video/ radio broadcasts with call in Q&A would be more effective?? Then the kids fighting for long winded notoriety.
Do you think CMN really has his act together yet, I mean if Heaven was prompting the Fab4 to help him, where is the obvious hand of divinity in his fruit or works? I bet the wait isn’t Heaven’s idea, right?
Do you think the Gold Plates would not stand as their own witness, if presented, I mean it wouldn’t hurt Heaven’s goals, they are by the way CMN preaches are firmly settled on him to finish things up right?
Do you think throwing and chipping the U&T, that they need to be returned to get a Nanotechnology tune up?
Is CMN’s RV the mobile revelation temple or tabernacle?? Is CMN’s Holy of Holies with a two (roll) stick holder?
Maybe good for now,
I mean you don’t answer any of them Julie Rivers Walters, I thought you had to keep up the public needs, or was the position just “Affairs” appointed. Seemed like your tennis pal thought so?
The gold robot maid, Dot Marix on Space balls, really fits your real life calling. Same look, same and specifically opposite in so many ways - good movie if you haven’t seen it in a while. Joan Rivers isn’t that far from Barbra Walters.
And you should know better, I don’t even write like JJ, never met him, and even showed you my ID at the Pow wow. And for the record, I can’t see how even remotely Richard could be either. If this is from the cut and paste posting you have slobbered over for months, you might want to go get your head’s voices checked out asap.
Chris M. Nemekla / Smith - the former who was, who isn’t, and will yet BE - still seems Biblically similar to the Antichrist and his Beast. I guess used for good and evil went for the whole Smith family.
One of these posts I’ll recap all the Anti Christ parallels between CMN and WUFfy, it is a growing list.
Getterdone
Numbers dear Numbers,
check these ones out - wanted to start on these ones here first….
According to postings on the WUF site the total number of signatures on their declaration are as follows:
As of Sept. 7, 2009 - 538, Jan. 3, 09 - 492, Jan. 1, 08 - 365, Jan. 3, 07 - 77, and inception Oct. 29, 06 - 01.
So the number of days ratio to signatures are; overall 1 sig for 1.94 days, currently is 1 sig for 5.369 days, and in the best growth it was 1 sig for .8684 days (this was for the first 66 days).
It would be estimated by current growth rates another 21 people will sign up this year, obcourse at current rates.
If they estimate at overall growth rates, to hit 2000 signatures it will be in June 12, 2017, but by current rates - Jan. 30, 2039
Just for when they know they could rent the Delta Center to get them all together (20,000) by overall growth rates - November 30, 2115, but by current rate of growth it will occur on Sept. 6, 2303.
The WUF by far shows more of the “signed” conviction of its members, most of the yahoo group site members of the MWAW have signed it and their family members too. It seems to be a better example of who is supporting their ideals and religion (I think I proved it well enough at the Pow wow, members of the MWAW led by CMN are a religion, maybe not as organized but still qualify by definition).
Now part of the reason is this part one of 3 parts of growth studies I will show, the other two are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints and the Cavalry Chapel Christian Church.
There is reason to this, if the backbone of a religion is based on Heaven’s work, Righteous work which supports Heaven’s fundamentals - they grow, in fact they have numbers which show this clearly in a pattern of Heavenly Father support. But even in current technology standards, the internet has been the more wide spread devise to distribute information - whether good or bad. So poor numbers for today’s growing religions could mean alot of things - Bad public relations, poor word of mouth sharing, poor advertising, or maybe other factors I haven’t considered (maybe their PR Director will clarify why in time). It could be so many different excuses????
So to conclude this portion of growth rates, if the shoe fits then wear it - if the product is man made or man’s knowledge, then it will show it. If it is called of Heavenly Father - it result shows this also. For it is not both, one or the other/ hot or cold/ bitter water good fountain/ good tree bad fruit - it just doesn’t fit the pattern.
Give me a day or so, I want this to settle in, to see what comes excusing it as misrepresented. The other numbers are going to SEAL this argument shut!
Getterdone
Wait till after this scenario, for the next segment of concrete evidence to confound the sealed subjects. For the record the sealed portion which CMN represents is nothing more than one man’s fiction falsely documented by him to be of Jesus Christ/ Heavenly Father’s direction.
Numbers cont.
I couldn’t resist some more MWAW/ WUF ratios:
To fill the Delta Center (20,000)
5 sig a day they would reach it by May 3, 2020
10 sig a day they would reach it by Jan. 4, 2015
20 sig a day they would reach it by May 6, 2012
50 sig a day they would reach it by Sept. 30, 2010
Maybe these will drive up their attempts on their associates, friends, or street walkers?
It is always good to have dreams or goals!
Chris Hasseloften
Oh Oh.. looks like the idea of “do unto others” concept that CNM porfesses.. went right out the window. Seems that the talk that Elder Holland gave has sparked a real emotional response from him. NOW.. CNM is going to publish to the world: Without Disclosing My True Identity—The Official and Authorized Biography of Joseph Smith Jr. Written by Christopher under the direction of the resurrected Joseph Smith Jr. Published by Pearl Publishing.
Oh.. won’t this be fun. hehehe
Aaron T. Nemelka and other victims at Ft. Hood didn’t die FOR their country…
They died BECAUSE of their country!
Watch this powerful and formidable message at this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7xX2lBfdW4
With not even a blink, the failed Human Reality of Christopher Marc Nemelka is now using his nephew’s coffin as a soap box for his financial gain - buy my book.
Nostradamus saw two pillars fall on 11/9, most thought he had it backwards when Sept. 11 happened…. I think the fall of CMN’s morals to promote his book at his estranged family’s expense and the martyrdom of his nephew, is just one of his history’s marked signs - more than just John (Revelations)have seen this. CMN is just filling his shoes in his upcoming worldly role.
You want a website try this out - if refutes every claim CMN makes - pretty well timed too…
http://sealednot.wordpress.com/.
So easy to see how his whims of being Hyrum fitted his purpose of deceiving Mrs. Ida Smith, his city weekly article fit his need then too, his pin ball course speaks for itself.
Stick to your own site, Julie. Keep your Arise and Awake nonsense to your circle-ass-kissing-foot washed-knuckleheads.
[…] The Book of Mormon, The Sealed Portion at 6:20 am by Jessica I recently stumbled onto an LDS blog that was discussing the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. In the comments section some […]
Wondering where your Sealed Portion/ WUF donations go when sent in, with out a receipt - for that matter. Awhile back in posts, I showed where & when he made the WUF foundation in his sole control (in his name, somehow I missed how it’s a foundation now).
So to anyone wanting to send Christmas cards: You can mail it OR you could just drop by CMN Headquarters????
World Wide United Fund/ Marvelous Work and Wonder/ The Sealed Portion/ Human Reality/ Nemelka Residence??? Taggert Residence???
13275 Minuteman Dr., Draper Utah (it was on a press release sent out)
Maybe you should LOOK first, before you go there hoping for a real building address………try this link to Google Earth Maps:
.
Maybe Christmas carolling might be fun, but thats about it though. Unless you have “gas” to donate?
With the sealed subjects playing with themselves this Holiday season, I am sure this will be read by one of them. It is particularly odd how quite it got on the Yahoo group site, not a Wonder to me -CMN’s love sort of stinks. I guess in winter there aren’t too many flies to get caught there, even with pissy You Tube rants.
In the down time, how about setting up a one on one with OZ himself, just me and him - come on Julie what else is he doing with his time?
Chris H.
Lets see if the link appears now?
maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&source=hp&q=13275+Minuteman+Dr.,+Draper+Utah&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=13275+Minuteman+Dr,+Draper,+Salt+Lake,+Utah+84020&gl=us&ei=h1EUS6fBAZP0sgPSpJiLBA&ved=0CAoQ8gEwAA&ll=40.51039,-111.890656&spn=0.000895,0.002293&z=19&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=40.510448,-111.890676&panoid=xpANwZAPuovzNjoZVdJZdA&cbp=12,75.23,,0,5